frustrated and am i being selfish?
By Joshua
9/8/2010 12:05:02 AM
so here i sit on my pc thinking i should go to bed but also thinking that if i go to bed i will meet my wife there then i will feel frustrated a bit as we have been trying to work out on giving more of our love towards eachb other and the ways we can show this love so i think i have been trying to show it the ways that she wants it and she has been too but not when it comes down to showing it ina physical way in the bedroom with the compromise we made and i think i am stretching quite a bit on this and she feels she is too but it makles me feel frustrated that she will not hold up her end of the bargain and when i feel frustrated not only in this aspect but other things i go searching for p-rn and then as a result of me feeling excited i end up masterb-ting. is it wrong? yes i know it is wroing. am i willing to fiund another outlet? i think i am but mind saids no at this moment and my heart is sort of 50/50 on it as i know it will make me feel good for a moment but it will cost me an enternity of blessings now plus the bklessings we have now in my relationship with my wife now that it is a bit better beacuse she is doing the other stuff i suggested to make me feel loved and wanted. i just wish it would be repricoated in the nedroom as per our compromise. i just want to know ur thoughts as soemtimes i think that maybe i am being selfish other times i think maybe she is holding back as she doesn't want to get hurt again or maybe she really is tired, not rleaxed or a host of other issues as accoridng to soem books i have been reading about the female s-xual reponse they need to be totally relaxed not thinking about other thiongs to be 100% in the mood( whoich i have tried in the pat but it seems when i do that all i get out of it is a big thank u and then she goes and does whatever she wants to do most of the time when i do this)

p:s still want to know, but i do feel better so i guess i will go to bed and let me know ur answers please i haven't blogged for a very long time and once i am done feeling down in the dumps about my relationship with my wife( which i am right now) i don't feel the need to go searching for p or m


Sucks man    
"I don't know...this is foreign to me. But I did have a question. If I'm reading right you and your wife have come an understanding of one anothers needs and a commitment to try and fulfill them and one of these "needs" is sexual? And when she doesn't fulfill her side of the compromise you want to look at porn. My question is why do you want to have sex with her? Is it for her or only you? Maybe I'm way off base but It sounds like your impart motivated to make her comfortable, hold up your end of the compromise etc so you can receive your next fix through her. If I'm wrong or off there pay my question and statement no more mind then to recognize it as such. Personally the idea of my wife being intimate with me as a compromise sounds pretty though. Sorry your in that situation brother. Sorry I'm probly no help.

p.s. Of coarse your selfish. Your an addict. Ha! But be of good cheer Jesus has overcome the world!!! I know that's true from experience...and I've never knowingly been able to say that"
posted at 00:38:32 on September 8, 2010 by They Speak
"Hope I'm not being to presumptuous in assuming your an addict. Are you an addict? If you are an addict my guess is that your selfish...ya know?..the whole Eve partook of the fruit thing now we are all selfish animals...but the story doesn't end there. That's all I'm saying."
posted at 00:44:27 on September 8, 2010 by They Speak
putting the pressure on her for your recovery    
"you may need to revisit step 1 on honesty, and why you're putting so much pressure on your wife for your recovery. Did you do a step 4 yet? Sounds like you need to practice your step work."
posted at 08:35:44 on September 8, 2010 by BTTB
Hope this helps...    
"I don't know your situation or you or your wife, so I hope this does not come off in the wrong way.

Whether your wife is purposely withholding from you is something only she can answer, but under the circumstances, she may not be able to help it. Several sisters on this site have commented, and truthfully so, that it is hard if not impossible for them to feel intimate with someone who is involved in these types of sins and addictions.

I have read several of your previous posts and it seems to me that your wife has been very forgiving and loving to support you so well in your struggles with these sins. For that, you should be more than patient with her in these same areas. I do not want to offend you, but I don't know that you have much of a right to expect any "compromises" while you're still battling this addiction.

Matthew 7:3-4

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

As I said, I do not know you or your specific circumstances, what I do know,is you cannot see your relationship with your wife clearly while practicing these behaviors. I do not say this condescendingly, or to be judgmental, because I have my own battles, as you can guess by the very fact that I'm on this site. These are just the thoughts that come to mind reading your post.

Please be patient with your wife. Love her, despite any difficulties. Our wives deserve our love, respect, and devotion more than we may ever know in this life."
posted at 10:03:08 on September 8, 2010 by paul
I hope you know that this is a very common problem    
"I think MOST newlyweds have gone through something similar. Ask yourself what you would do if your wife was injured and UNABLE to be sexual with you for an extended period of time. Well, that is exactly the case in the beginning of recovery. Let me give you a picture of what it will be like if you keep on the recovery path. You will be able to take sex or leave it. It is no longer a priority in your marriage. This was the case with me at two years clean. After much patience, it is usally the spouse that begins to initiate sex again. The whole biting your fingernails, thinking you're going to explode or go crazy if you don't have sex soon, is part of the "disease" of addiction. Many people are called to live a celibate life;Single men and women. Every couple, even the non-addicts, go through at least a couple dry spells in their marriage. Recovery really helps us weather these spells. Recovery can give us a daily reprieve from our sexual obsession. Try calling a fellow addict who has some recovery experience every single day. Good luck to you!"
posted at 13:34:44 on September 8, 2010 by Anonymous
You sound sexually needy: It's your addiction...    
"Please don't put that pressure on your wife. You are very , very lucky she is with you. And whatever she gives you will not be enough as long as you keep satiating your addiction. Get yourself under control.

Realize you are punishing her and using her lack of intimacy as a justification for your bad behavior. Don't fool yourself. You are not fooling her.

A very real consequence of having an affair with porn is losing a relationship with your spouse.
There are always consequences. I hope you will choose what you want. You are very lucky you have a choice!

Relations with a porn addict, my opinion, are very undesirable, unattractive and immature.

You are reading the WRONG books. Your wife needs more than relaxation. She needs to feel commitment and trust. From you. Find books on HEALING your marriage. She may be kind to you, but it doesn't mean this doesn't hurt her. Find the books that build your understanding of the true damage you could be doing to your familly. Not just to you."
posted at 15:44:43 on September 8, 2010 by Anonymous
You need to go trough recovery    
"you sound to me like you are still sexually obssessed. From a women's point of vue, the knowledge that my husband has a porn problem has completely turned me off. I feel so hurt and so much pain whenever sex is on the table, I feel like many times he has used me for sex. He rarely ever did things just for me, but always with a reward in view. For instance, I will help you more with the kids, or get you flowers, etc.. but I expect sex at the end of the day. This has made me feel so used. That is not real love at all. Real love is FORGETTING ONE SELF and OUR OWN NEEDS for the one we love. That is regardless of what they choose to do. Marriage is not a contract where I will do this when you do this, etc... Marriage is a covenant!!!!! And our saviour said, husbands love your wife as Jesus loved the church and gave his life for it!!!!! Marriage was not meant only for the fulfillement of our needs but rather to help us become more christlike, in learning to forget ourselves for another human being!!! My husband's porn addiction has made me feel so used and so low, I really do not want to have any sex with him at all, I actually am not sure I want to be married with someone for whom sex is so important. But he has been changing, it's been more than 8 months (with absolutely no sex), now and he is in recovery doing well (we are still a young couple too). He has learned and is learning to really love someone and to let go of his selfishness with the help of the 12 steps and a counselor, who helped him healed so that he does not need sex to cope with life. I'm glad you posted because I think a lot of man need to know this while my husband knows this now, there are still so many that do not know what love really is.

Good luck to you, get to recovery, stop thinking about sex and build your life on LOVE not SEX!!!!! and you will get both!!!!

posted at 16:36:06 on September 8, 2010 by Anonymous
Quenching the fire    
"Joshua I've been there too. I've had nights when I really wanted to have sex but I knew my wife was not in the is hard to quench the fire. On more than one occasion I have been wide awake for hours, listening to my wife breathing, trying to control the strong urges. I've also had times that I have avoided going to bed because I'm not sure if my wife is interested in having sex...I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one to have had these experiences. You mention how you felt after you wrote your post--your desires had changed. You were being totally honest and also willing to have a change of heart. In addition to blogging I have found that reading from recovery literature can really help to calm the fire. It has gotten easier for me in recent months-As my wife and I have worked through recovery our desires have started to become more in sync with each other. It appears that you have brought up a topic that many can relate to. Thank you.

BECLEAN--excellent post! I recently saw a recording of a talk Elder Holland gave on intimate relationships. Your descriptions are very much in line with what he said. I agree that sexual relationships are an important part of marriage and of healing. As my wife and I have worked through recovery our intimate moments have become more sincere and more special. This has corresponded with growth we have shared "away from the bedroom." I am so grateful for the relationship I have with her."
posted at 22:53:43 on September 8, 2010 by Seekrecovery
Pressure relief    
"I have been and sometimes still in the same space. I think it is a lot. Harder for women to have sex then it is for guys. And i think we take that aspect for granted. I know that things helped when I sat down with my wife and discussed options. The fact was that she still loved me and wanted to help me but didn't feel safe enough to be intimate. We decided there were ways to relieve pressure without pushing her too fast. It is only a temporary solution and it HAS to be done in an appropriate way. But for us, I could see that she was interested in helping me beat this, she cooed feel like she was helping without being pushed into somewhere she didn't feel safe. After time, she found she could trust me again, and it HASN'T been easy but it has helped to sometimes just relieve the pressure."
posted at 10:41:38 on September 9, 2010 by Tjditch
say what tj?    
"I like what you are saying, but: Can you please be a little bit more specific without being inappropriately graphic?

posted at 12:13:30 on September 9, 2010 by Anonymous
A few thoughts from a wife....    
"My husband and I have been there and occassionally still struggle with what you've posted. BECLEAN was right on with his comments. It's not a quick, easy fix though. You've got to remember that one of the first things that left your relationship was trust. It might be one of the last things to be put back into the relationship as you work on healing the damage. I instinctly knew when the changes were coming. It's not something you can tell your wife. She will FEEL when it is safe and when she can trust again. It will come through the Spirit, not anything you can do or say to her will make a difference. Addicts lie and, as wives, we learn to trust only the promptings of the Spirit to confirm our feelings. Spend as much time as you can on honestly working your recovery program. When you are TRULY into recovery and have earned her trust, the Lord will let her know. You can't fake your way on this one. It needs to be heart deep and sincere. We know when we're being pushed and when we're being loved unconditionally and cherished. There's a huge difference for a woman.

In the book AND THEY WERE NOT ASHAMED by Laura Brotherson, she suggests three necessary elements for any successful marriage. Physical is mentioned and covered very well in the post by BECLEAN. The other two are spiritual and emotional. Trying to make it work when any one of the three is broken leaves a marriage out of balance. I'd highly recommend her work. Her website is if you're interested in checking out her info.

Helping your wife with the idea that you will be 'rewarded' is not unconditional. It is right to have 'hope' but not 'expectations'. Hope is easy to walk away from when things don't go as desired. Expectations will leave you frustrated and perhaps a little angry. When that happens your heart isn't right and we 'feel' it.

It is not impossible to achieve but it does take time. Your wife is among the walking wounded. It will take time for her to heal and you can't use a time table to measure when she should be done. Continue to be patient and monitor your intentions. She is and she might not even know it. Until you're both well into recovery, it's hard to exactly name what your feelings are. It only comes with time and healing.

I wish you both the best. It is worth working for!"
posted at 12:29:24 on September 9, 2010 by SEEINGLIGHT
Well said    
"Nice distinction between hope and expectation seeinglight. I needed to hear that. Maybe even needed to hear that a a lot lot. I do that (expect) with the Lord and then I get all huffy puffy with Him when things don't go as expected."
posted at 14:20:22 on September 9, 2010 by They Speak
from the SA white book    
"Healing in my marriage and in the family is one of the most blessed areas of this new life, even though things aren't always a bed of roses. I've found something better then lust-reality. But I have to be willing to give up any thought of changing partners, either actually or in fantasy, even if it means not having sex at all. Each time, i have to surrender my right to sex and depend on the grace of God. What else can you call it? And there are times my wife and I have gone without sex for extended periods. But its alright; sex is optional now. I have a choice. And mutually voluntary periods of abstinence for a year or so have proven to be the most constructive-and happy-times of our entire marriage. For me the key was finally giving up all expectations of either sex or affection, and working on myself and my defective relations with others."
posted at 15:09:28 on September 9, 2010 by They Speak
Pressure Relief... without being Graphic    
"Ok, here it goes. The way I think about this and the discussion I had with my wife went somewhere along these lines. If you read the "do not masterbate" pamphlet when you were a teenager then you'll remember the way it was described. That every man has an engine and at some point our engine gets started. Sometimes the engine gets overwhelmed and needs a release, before we had sexual relations, and if you didn't masterbate then God made an easy way, perhaps a dream one night, etc.

The fact is that sex is a natural drive and desire. We've taken it out of context and distorted it. But in our recovery, our "engines" are still running. At times this can overwhelm us. Our job as an addict is to resist, to change our way of thinking, etc. But there can be a lot of negative emotions when we are white knuckling and we see our spouse, someone we have been intimate with unavailable because she isn't safe. The compromise I suggested above and that my wife and I came to is that if I'm feeling out of control, emergency type situation, and she doesn't want to be intimate, for whatever reason, she will help me manually to relieve the pressure.

I know this might make a lot of people uncomfortable and some would say that it's not learning to deal with your recovery etc. But this is a funny addiction. It takes something that is a natural desire, that is good and holy and right and makes it wrong. When we feel that pressure from hormones, it's real! A spouse can help without putting herself in an unsafe place. Not every wife will feel comfortable with it and neither will every husband. It can be a dangerous line. You must watch you thoughts VERY CAREFULLY. In fact I will go so far as to say your thoughts MUST stay on your spouse or you aren't just taking care of a physicial drive, you're feeding your addiction. It's not a fantasy session! IT"S NOT getting your wife to take the place of your own hand! It's an opportunity for her to help you, for you to go to her when you're afraid you can last much longer and in a small way heal together.

When my wife and I were in the same place as Joshua and his spouse we were both felt it was WAY better for me to come to her in times of need. The intimacy will return, and as I said before this is a SLOW process. My suggestion is a bandaid. YOu HAVE TO WORK THE PROGRAM AND STAY CLEAN!!!"
posted at 20:45:06 on September 11, 2010 by tjditch
Oh my goodness...    
"That is wrong on so many levels! As if you haven't demeaned your wife enough! How do you justify that behavior as anything other than USING your wife for your own sexual gratification? You're wrong about the engine. What are single men supposed to do to relieve the pressure? That is the great lie that Satan has spread; that men NEED sex. It IS absoutely possible with Gods help to bring the physical appetites under the control of the spiritual body. It's my opinion that it is BETTER to do the sin YOURSELF and accept the sin on your own soul instead of involving your wife in your indulgence. I'm sorry, but in my opinion that is NOT recovery."
posted at 01:23:44 on September 12, 2010 by Anonymous
"I am the anonymous poster above. I wanted to apologize for judging you. It was a reaction and I am sorry if it hurt your feelings. I am open to the idea that I may be completely wrong. What I DO know to be wrong is- my judging you. Good luck to you."
posted at 01:56:38 on September 12, 2010 by Anonymous
Good Stuff Here    
" /> /> />
Here is a way to get professional advice that, in my opinion, will vault you and your wife into a world of understanding, cooperation and healthy intimacy. Let's face it, The Lord created us as sexual beings. We cannot deny this. This power is unequaled in the universe.

As sons of God we need to take this power and gain control over it--- AND WE CANNOT DO THIS WITHOUT A DAUGHTER OF GOD BY OUR SIDE. Sisters need to realize that there is a lot of competition out there for the soul of her husband. Even in the Church we have "Predatious Women" (women on the prowl for someones arms to hold them and make them feel secure) They are there in the work place. They are there on the billboards of our highways, on the ABC Family Channel announcements of so called family entertainment. Our entire culture is at the boiling point of sexual arousal.

The three above web sites will give you the wherewithal to fight your battles and come out on the Lords side. Sexual Intimacy in marriage is essential and to pretend otherwise is futile and denies the very definition of the the word marriage.

Joshua, imagine having a testimony of the "Remarkable Soul of a Woman". Can you grasp the wonder and beauty of a Daughter of Heavenly Father? Womanhood is so powerful. Combine it with Priesthood and we have that Grand Mission Statement of Heavenly Father found in Moses 1:39 "Behold, this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."
Joshua, you are in the battle of your life. Be prayerful and don't let Satan make you feel so ashamed that you want to give up or give in. Be prayerful, go to meetings, come here often, roll with the punches and give out a few if you have to.
More later Bro."
I understand Tj    
"Hi Tj,

Without going into a bunch of details, I want to tell you that your comments are well taken by this spouse.

There are stages of shock after disclousure. Initially a spouse may need complete withdrawl and may not even feel safe in the same house as her husband.

Should he (and she I believe) enter recovery by attending 12 steps and possibily counceling, healing will be slow and akward in the beginning.

As the seeds of trust begin to be restored, then the couple can discuss how to best care for each other.

I personally believe that what Tj is suggesting is completely acceptable. He is very clear that this "help" happens only when the wife feels safe to do so. I have no problem whatsoever, caring for my husband and helping him when I do not feel secure. I never felt victimized by him, as we have had the same agreement as TJ's.

Dear sisters, it will take some time to understand that our husbands "DO NOT WANT THIS ADDICTION" . And, as hard as it may be to comprehend, they suffer a living hell as they battle in their hearts, minds, and souls for peace as they try to stop acting out. I guess for them, it is kind of like when you start a diet and are committed to sticking to the plan, only to find you yourself eating a batch of cookies the next day.

I'm not sure if the above analogy makes any sense, but I have come to believe that I am not a victim. Oh, and believe me I have felt like one most of my life when it comes to relationships. I often wondered why Heavenly Father would lead me to a man who would do such a thing.

I no longer feel like my husband is hurting me with his sins. I believe that he is hurting himself and his divine destiny. My relationship with Jesus Christ is what saves me from victimhood. By divine grace, he is the one who gives me the healing balm to go on in the midst of such turmoil.

Each person must turn to Christ to experience the miracle of the atonement. The timing was never mine, I am only willing to allow him to heal me. And, so long as my husband is willing to continue to trying, and is taking the steps to experience The Lord's powerful grace, I am there for him to hold his hand and walk this journey with him.

I have personally found that if we as sisters just send our husbands away to be repaired and think they will just come home and all will be well, we will not be able to experience "The Miracle" in this area of our lives.

Having said all the above, I know that each of us are in a different place at a different time and if we stay close to the Lord through the scriptures, prayer, and following the prophet, we can be lead and we will know exactly what to do as we drink from this extremely bitter cup.

This is a very long journey, and I sometimes feel like crossing the plains would have been a piece of cake at this point, but I have to remind myself that they made it, and so will we.

I love each of you and am grateful for the posts and comments from everyone on this blog. God Bless you Derek for using your 12th step to bless so many lives.

Your sister in Christ,
posted at 12:58:42 on September 12, 2010 by Angelmom
I knew I shouldn't read this thread....    
"But I did.

Masterbating your husband is not better than him masterbating himself. I am sorry. I fully disagree. Keep it between you and your spouse but to promote it here....I know someone inquired. But I am not feeling the spirit with this one. At all. Adam wants the apple but is afraid to take it so he has his wife to do the dirty work?

Spouses that are willing to masterbate their husband to keep them from doing it themselves is TRULY exhibiting codependent behavior!!!! Women are sexual beings, too, you know. We didn't ASK our husbands to do what they have done!!! No matter how many times you deliver masterbation mingled with spiritual talk, it does not make it right!!!!

Understand this, addicts that we love, FIX your addiction. Don't ask us to be your FIX!!!!!!!!!!!

And I will keep this anonymous because I have grown to care for "you" here. But I cannot believe what I am reading!!!"
posted at 14:49:25 on September 12, 2010 by Anonymous
And I have to add    
"If a couple mutually chooses to do this, that is truly not to be judged by me. Forgive me.
Sex is normal and natural. But addicts have distorted this and are trying to get this under control.

To give addict husbands hope of this being a solution for them to relieve
the pressure legally.....I find this very, very disappointing. And unfair for those that deal with this...which was most people here at one time....who aren't married. I find this advice very supportive to what most addicts believe: "It will cure itself once I am married". It won't!!!

Husbands, chances are ,if your wife is too hurt to be with you the way God intended, she isn't going to assist you in ways that have hurt her AND you.

Please work on healing yourselves. You are so worth it! "
posted at 17:18:59 on September 12, 2010 by Anonymous
And Angelmom,    
"You have worked hard to be at the point you are at. My words are not directed at you. I am happy that you are finding yourself. Your name fits you."
posted at 17:29:42 on September 12, 2010 by Anonymous
What's the difference between codependency and charity?    
"Just a thought.'s just a thought. Think about it. A codependent person will obsessively feed an addictive cycle and rely on her husband's emotions to decide how she will be feeling. Are we being codependent when when we check the computer? What if we were counciled by the bishop to monitor the history? Are we being codependent or charitable? There again, I'd have to ask you what's in your heart (thoughts)? The same action by one person would be completely codependent and yet, by another, be completely charitable.

I believe that is why we're seeing such a huge swing of opinions on this thread. Where you are in your healing and recovery will dictate where you stand on this in addition to your own set of personal beliefs. Just as a I believe one sexual act between a married couple can be wrong because of thoughts, yet be completely right later when well into recovery because the thoughts that made it wrong are now gone. If your relationship is healed to the point that the wife is feeling that she should and wants to be present for anything sexual and she is in agreement, there's nothing wrong with it. If that is not where your hearts are, then avoid it.

I've had babies and surgery that called for a time of healing. Did that mean there could be nothing sexual? No, just not intercourse. Was that wrong because I was unable to participate completely? I don't believe so. That is something WE chose. It was right for us.

Is it right to compare your husband to a single man or a man with a wife who is physically unable to participate in sex? I don't believe it is. He's a married man with a healthy wife and as such we have an marital obligation to each other. Don't throw a bunch of 'what if's' into an already complicated situation. I'm also not saying that it's never appropriate to have periods of healing and abstinance. It's part of the journey. We've had many dry spells during our recovery.

Our husbands are addicts whose addiction is sex and a 'natural' function of a human. It makes it very, very difficult. I've been there. What if his addiction was food, the other 'natural' addiction? Should he abstain from food until he is cured? Or should he learn how to use food within the bounds the Lord has set? It will take practice before either one of you gets close to perfection. I work constantly on not seeing my husband as his addiction. I work on seeing him as a son of God with a challenge that is huge to bear. I see him going to his Father every day to maintain his sobriety. I see myself as his helpmeet. After I learned to see the addiction as a 'thing' we were both working to overcome, I could see my husband more clearly. This is not something he wants in his life. He didn't choose it. He was very young when he was exposed and grew up broken. He owns his part of his actions and we both wish it could have been removed many decades ago. Now we are in our 50's and finally getting it. My husband is not his addiction and I can love him in spite of his short comings....just like he does me. I haven't found perfect balance in all things yet either.

I'll go back to my original question. If I love my husband unconditionally with a Christ-like love (charity) and I choose to participate in sex with him because it is doctrinally and scripturally based to have this kind of love in our marriage and it is something we both choose to do, am I being charitable or codependent? My heart says charitable because our minds are purely on meeting the needs of each other.

If your relationship is not there yet, it will be a different answer for you. Both of you work on healing and understanding each other. You'll get there. Because we are all different, when we finally 'arrive', we may find ourselves in completely different places. But, if we are all happy, then we have fulfilled the admonition to be happy and have joy. That's scriptural too."
posted at 20:55:09 on September 12, 2010 by SEEINGLIGHT
This is why it is so hard for our loved ones to see us recovering from this addiction    
"Because us addicts are always thinking about ourselves AND ALWAYS EXPECTING OUR LOVED ONES TO DO THE SAME.

Sorry gents but it is true and I feel strongly about this one.
I would never ask my wife after taking her down so low to do such things. I sleep on the couch and am happy to stay there until my sweetheart invites me back to sleep beside her nevermind anything else. I am cool with that and understand that she needs that space for HER.

About pressure relief, goodness gracious I am so surprised to read all this stuff.
Clarifying the difference between Beclean's post and the relief stuff. Beclean was talking about a righteous marriage, one where there is no addiction and no need to relieve another. For goodness sake does it reach such crisis proportions that a partner must sound the alarm to be rescued?
Seriously if my wife were to do that I would think there were a few screws loose. It is not necessary. I truely believe that.

God did not create me that way because if he did I would have been born with SOS engraved on my forehead. Procreation is important BUT NOT THAT IMPORTANT surely.

I do not know and can never claim to know how such a marriage feels as referenced by Beclean. It never existed but I sure hope that I can share this with my wife. Until that happens I am all good on the couch and happy to go without sex. I do not need it, no one needs it in the manner we have seen it discussed here.

Just be greatful the wife is still there because if I were a betting man, odds are that she like my wife will not stay around if we think about ourselves."
posted at 20:56:02 on September 12, 2010 by ruggaexpat
guys...this is getting almost funny.    
"I know its no joke and i don't mean to make light of something so serious but did someone say masturbation mingled with spiritual talk? I don't remember that part in the video ;) Ha!

Honestly though, folks can do what ever they please in the bedroom. And it doesn't matter if others feel the spirit about it at all or not. I'm sure I could listen to some puritan spout off what they think is good wholesome intimacy sure to be filled with the spirit of god and all I'll think I feel is the spirit of The Scarlet Letter and that I'd rather find myself tourchered in a nazi concentration camp. But to them its good stuff. And I'm totally cool with that.

BUT, as it applies to opinion; if anyone thinks they are going to escape an eventual slip through their spouse...they are howell at the moon crazy! Unless their spouse is their higher power...?

I like the relation somebody made to food. Makes me think of the ww. Prudence and thanks giving. I dont think its wrong to listen to your body and act in accord with prudence. But, I think, if your motivated by satisfing your little engine that can't quit on his own by using your wife instead of the Savoir...well good luck, I can only speak for myself but I'm probly gonna go look at some porn after she's done. That's just me. Its ugly. But that's the truth. And I'm trying too be set free. I wish I could just rock some manual, whatever you wanna conservatively call it, and go about my business! Oh man that would be perfect! But I can't. My little engine that must wants/requires more and more and more and more and more and more and more."
posted at 01:43:04 on September 13, 2010 by They Speak
Different strokes for different folks.    
"pun intended."
posted at 03:39:09 on September 13, 2010 by Anonymous
I agree with you they speak    
"A sexual relation is suppose to be a union, it was meant to be taht way. Having your wife masturbate you is not a union, and is not what it was meant to be. Whether she feels confortable or not, is that how she sees sex??? This is using women to do what you are forbidden to do !!! It is wrong, and it is not wrong for some and right for some (that argument makes me think of the same sex argument, long as they are both consenting and adults and not hurting others, there are things that are not right no matter what intent you do it for). (How many women can honestly say they feel closer and joy after having masturbated their husbands instead of themselves doing it) That doesn't really matter because ... he will gratify himself anyways,.. I might as well do it for him so that he will still come to me with it??? Just does not make sense with me at all!!!!!! Call me judgemental if you want.. but it isn't right and most of you know it!!!!!

And if the engine has to be relieved because that is how man are built, what about single man and missionaries???? Who relieve their pressure???? It is wrong... very wrong..."
posted at 19:00:49 on September 13, 2010 by Anonymous
OK after thinking about this WONDERFUL auto analogy and all: The solution as I see it.    
Doing so may just allow the engine to cool down a wee bit."
posted at 20:35:13 on September 13, 2010 by ruggaexpat
"Are you sure that your wife masturbating you is "clean and chaste"? Could it be that your addiction has hurt her so much that she would rather do the deed for you than have you fantasizing about some other woman? You said," Both of us were grateful we could perform an action TOGETHER which would satisfy us both." How does this satisfy her beside giving her temporary relief from the fear that you will act out by yourself. We are supposed to bring our sexual appetites under subjection of our spirit. Too many mormon men have the ridiculous notion that "anything goes" as long as their wife is on board. I really don't have a problem with what you and your wife do in the privacy of your own home unitl you get on this forum and justify an act that in my opinion is contrary to true sexual sobriety. What are you telling the newcomer? Don't masturbate, have your wife do it instead. That is not recovery. Keep it in your bedroom! I'm surprised that someone who claims to have so much clean time would blog about the details of their own intimacy. It was wrong when TJDITCH went there and it was wrong when you felt the need to back hiim up. Keep that stuff to yourselves! Are you able to take advice or just dish it out?"
posted at 02:10:34 on September 14, 2010 by Anonymous
Sheesh- Let's move on    
"This is a personal choice between a husband and a wife. I am a wife and I have health issues that will not allow me to "go all the way" at times.

It brings me great pleasure to satisfy my sweetheart. I am okay with it and if you are not okay with it, that is your choice.

Please don't judge so harshly those who make a choice that is not the same as yours.

Nuf said."
posted at 02:26:16 on September 14, 2010 by Anonymous
Anybody think this could be triggering ?    
"I agree with anonymous. I think way more than enough has been said. I used to come on here once in awhile to read and gain hope, but I think I am done. This is the kind of thing that can trigger some couples into a negative spin. This conversation is TOO PRIVATE and WAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION. For some of you husbands and wives have you ever thought how this could affect someone who is trying to heal from "sexual abuse" by a spouse who really went farther down the road? I would not begin to to "talk" about what I have gone through because I would hate to put ideas into anyone's head or trigger them to go on to do something they hadn't thought of before. Some things are best not discussed on public forums. This has become a column that someone who is still struggling with unrighteous thoughts and desires could use to "justify" their thoughts, desires and actions to their spouse. I don't think that is what this was originally set up for. I know many women and some men who have been put through the wringer. Their spouses struggle with way more than porn issues, they are full blown sex addicts. Someone said that what went on in the bedroom between husband and wife was ok, yet I remember reading in Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball's comments that not everything was ok. I think we need to be careful about putting out our "personal" opinions in public places on "private" issues. Each couple is in their own unique place and it should be between them, not the whole world. This is supposed to be a "safe" place to come, but reading this does not make me feel "safe". Just my 2 cents."
posted at 09:19:21 on September 14, 2010 by Anonymous
Lets talk more spiritual things    
"and keep the other stuff where it belongs."
posted at 09:23:39 on September 14, 2010 by ruggaexpat
I am so sorry...    
" any who were triggered by my comments, which I fully intended to keep uplifting and on a spiritual plane, the way I believe intimacy between a man and a woman should be discussed. I would NEVER intentionally trigger or justify the destructive, selfish actions of myself or fellow addicts. If people were triggered by my words, I apologize. If people are reading my comments as justification for disgusting selfishness and spousal coercion, they are reading my comments wrong.

Therefore, I am removing my comments, lest they be a stumbling block to anyone else. Unfortunately, it is my understanding that Anonymous posters can't remove their posts, even if they want to. So, I hope by removing my comments, I am removing the majority of the triggers.

To be clear, I do not apologize for my opinion or for sharing or defending it, and I personally do not think it is unclean or unholy, but I apologize for posting it on this forum in front of sensitive readers who may have been triggered by their addiction upon reading it. I see the folly in that.

For married couples not offended or triggered by my remarks, you can read support for EVERYTHING I wrote in the book "Between Husband & Wife: Gospel Perspectives on Marital Intimacy" by Stephen Lamb, MD and Douglas Brinley, PhD (religion professor at BYU)."
posted at 11:06:13 on September 14, 2010 by BeClean
Dear Anonymous    
"I have been where you are and I understand your anger towards this discussion. You are not in a place of healing and recovery where this could even be a consideration for you and your husband.

I just want to point out one little distinction in definition. When our husbands are acting out with pornography and self-stimulating, they are alone and by definition it is called masturbation.

When a husband and wife are sharing a sexual experience, it is no longer an isolated experience. Therefore, it cannot accurately be called masturbation.

For those of us, like beclean and myself, whose marriages are now well into recovery, our experiences are very different than what you're describing. There is no shame and it is a bonding experience for us. I had my husband read this thread. He saw both sides. What wouldn't have been right during his addiction is now comfortable for both of us because of the healing."
posted at 11:47:29 on September 14, 2010 by SEEINGLIGHT
"I had a whole post written and decided not to post it, but you should not be judging a person, nowhere did I claim I was angry. My point was that we need to think of ALL who are on here and what might trigger them. Yes this discussion is not a "safe" place for me because I would be worried about the consequences to some people who are reading these things. Not all are in the same place. I stated that I would not share what has happened to me because I would not want to place ideas in heads. You have to remember that this kind of conversation may be ok for you, but not everyone can handle it. When we reach a point of healing if we are not careful we can forget what it was like. This isn't about "definitions" it is about appropriateness of subject and what can be the consequences to what we post. I am not trying to argue, I am not trying to judge I am just asking people to think and be respectful that not everything should go on a public forum. I don't need or want justification from people, that has been going on the whole column, I am not arguing right or wrong. I am saying it isn't appropriate or safe for many people. These are things that should stay between a couple. How you and your husband deal with it are none of my business, just as how any other couple is dealing is none of my business, so I guess that is my point. The point is our opinions don't matter when it comes to Josh and his wife. That is between them and if he is having a problem he needs to go to her and work it out, not come to a public forum for opinions. You don't think that could lead to a problem in their marriage? How might she feel if during their conversation he were to use something you said like a weapon? I am not saying he would because I don't know him or his wife, but there are people who would. I feel that when it comes to this kind of talk, it is not safe on a public forum. It makes me uncomfortable, we are all at different places we are all at different stages of healing and we don't know in this area where we could do damage unintentionally. Even when we are in recovery something can trigger us if we are not careful. We had our group leader in "fall off the wagon" and go back full swing into the "other side" while he was the leader and I mean way over. Recovering is an ongoing process and we should never feel too comfortable no matter where we are at. Be Clean I thank you for your thoughtfulness in posting a reference where people can go. I did not mean to stir up any controversy."
posted at 13:02:52 on September 14, 2010 by Anonymous
Man, Women and God    
"Marriage is a unity between God, Man and Women. God created Marriage in the same way he created everything else. Adam was instructed in the Garden to maintain it and care for it and look after all things in the Garden. Eve was in that garden. So, God expects Adam to care for Eve as he would care for himself or anything else God created.
That being said.....Our opinions here are just that OPINIONS. Mans opinions. The real answer comes from God as we involve him in our union. Because, He is involved and He is the one who knows each of us in a way we do not even know ourselves. He will direct us in our healing and our service to our spouses."
posted at 14:22:11 on September 14, 2010 by BYOUROWNHERO
i say enough to this blog    
"okay, so I have read these comments about it and i think that we got off topic to what i originally wrote and i got enough enougn info now better and i have been sufficient chaste in my thinking. i figure this how can i say to my wife hold up your end of the bargain when i have been hurting my wife far worse then this for at times she does hold up her end but does it really matter if she does or not? i decided that it doesn't matter. what matters is that i make her confortable and that she is able to trust me again and it might take a long time it might not but i need to be willing to wait it out for how can i expect her do engage in this type of itimacy without her trusting me. for i believe and i have a huge hope now that if i change my heart and turn onto the Lordand his gospel eventually my wife will trust me again and then we involved in expressing our selves how we feel about each other physically it will be beautiful and it will be like our own little garden of eden...I just know that i can't play with her emotions anymore thru watching of porn or masterbating as she feels that is cheating and if i imagine myself in her shoes for real then i know i would feel the same emotional pain she has and if i profess to love her then i would do this for her to save our love for each other.. i just sure hope that when times get tough and the adversary is knowcking at my door constantly constantl to look at anything or any person that will give physical gratification that i will recgonize the counterfiet for what it is and focus on the loive i have for my wife just like Elder Holland has said in his talk" place no more place for the enemy of our soul" that more than one man has been saved my remembering the face of his..wife and that is what i intend to do plus to the things my bishop has said for me to do. so please pray for me"
posted at 19:43:08 on September 14, 2010 by Joshua
Mate I will say one for you    
"I was touched by your humility in this last post.
It is hard for us to realise those things but this sort of realization was a massive turning point for me."
posted at 20:48:25 on September 14, 2010 by ruggaexpat
I for one appreciate this    
"Sorry Josh I just have one comment cause this has been good stuff in my opinion and I think everyone should be stoked on what's gone on here.

I just wanted to say I appreciate all the comments. The hilarious thing is everyone is right. Ha! In trying to relate his struggle to an american southerner while in jail in the late sixties Nelson Mandela relays in effect that; its difficult (near impossible) to relate to others from different contexts. That's all that's going on here I think.

I also believe this addiction and a billion others thrive, as we've all heard, in secrecy and I strongly, ardently and even vehemently believe taboo is secrecys ugly twin and can be even more insidious because culturally we approve of it. So, I'm glad we talked! I think everyone has been open and still kept the sacred sacred.

I personally feel more "safe" in an environment where anyone can come and safely say with apprehension "hey... sometimes I want to kill people so my wife buys me hamsters to torcher to cool off my engine" and he will be warmly received and engaged and where we can bounce ideas off each other on subjects the brethren have seen fit to be silent. Like murdering and torchering hamsters (like what goes on in married couples bedrooms I'm pretty sure the bishops hand book is silent on torchering hamsters but I could be wrong). Rather then being told "Now now now, a little to open there turbo. We don't talk about that here on this serial killer recovery forum. Your making us uncomfortable plus you may be spreading satans ideas to other wackos. Talk about spiritual stuff...ya know? at church". Cause I think the latter response makes active serial killers out of people way faster then any would be trigger! And the former is what helps potential serial killers get it out in the open where it can be attacked in the Light and they may hope to find healing in the midst there of.

Life is a trigger. God didn't pull Bathsheeba out of the water to prevent a trigger from happening within the heart of the apple of His eye (nor did he omit it from scripture to protect us) so I doubt He or any mortal is going to prevent it from happening to us dirty addicticts...i mean good word, this is an addiction recovery forum right? This isn't the garden of eden so why pretend like it is? Even by using vague analogies about our various fallen situations and how we handel them to appease cultural taboo (even if that taboo is centered around the noble bogus allusion that we can keep anyone in innocence) instead of using candid openness about our various fallen situation AND how we handle them? We can be candid and still be appropriate leaving out graphic details (like the countless scriptures the Lord has preserved for us about misogyny, sodomy, adultery, onanism, murder, insest, rape, secret combinations, cannibalism, war, family feuds, prostitution etc etc... speaking of which what was all this about giving people here ideas about sin? Aren't we suppose to read our scriptures? How can we and still remain innocent untriggered ostriches?..we can't.) which I think everyone here has done magnificently. Let's talk about it! All of it. And leave the triggers to the Lord. That's all I'm saying."
posted at 23:21:40 on September 14, 2010 by They Speak
"The church defines pornography as any material depicting or describing the human body or sexual conduct in a way that arounses (triggers) sexual feelings. Obviously this is not the place to come for protection."
posted at 00:20:55 on September 15, 2010 by Anonymous
"You might be too smart for recovery."
posted at 00:40:45 on September 15, 2010 by Anonymous
"Are the scriptures any less graphic then this forum? Freak dude cool your jets.

I may be to much of a lot of things for recovery but smart ain't one of them. I'm pretty sure no one, literally, no one has ever said a more unkind thing to me. Why would you say that? "
posted at 01:10:37 on September 15, 2010 by They Speak
Did that make you uncomfortable?    
"If someone-ANYONE- feels that the subject matter is uncomfortable wouldn't the charitable thing be to talk about something else? All I'm saying is maybe people should think about how others might feel, instead of saying-in essence, "Just deal with it or go somewher else."

I didn't say you were too smart. I said you MIGHT BE too smart. That could be a compliment. You need to grow a thicker skin. Life is gonna throw you faster curve balls than my petty comment.
And if that's the most unkind thing, you lead a pretty sheltered life, mate. Goodnite!"
posted at 01:32:06 on September 15, 2010 by Anonymous
your adorable    
"So that's why you said make me uncomfortable? To prove a point. Hmm. Okay, point taken. Except that everyone here is trying to make everyone as comfortable as possible and still talk about the recovery process as best they see your implied argument is weak. And your direct argument is similarly weak except that you rely on the strength of questionable subject matter, which is primarily in the eye of the beholder, rather then your no leg to stand on conduct example.

The charitable thing to do is talk about the recovery process (subject) as best we see it, even if we disagree, and try to make everyone feel comfortable (conduct). Preferably by going about it in a spirit of love. And quite frankly aside from my own loveless comments you seem, at least to me, to be the only one lacking in that department.

The other reason your point with me is pointless is I'm not here to be safe or comfortable. I'm here to recover. I want to hear what others have to say (including you) even if it triggers me. The Lord knows why I'm here. I trust Him...and all of you (including you). That's all I'm saying."
posted at 02:34:43 on September 15, 2010 by They Speak
Had some time to think    
"I dont erase my comments cause I want to remember what I'd do different next time otherwise I would.

That being said...*pride swallowed* I really do think its ultra important everyone feels comfortable and safe even if I dont personally value it much for myself. Especially the ladies. You guys have been so helpful to me (maybe I should make this my own blog sorry Joshua). Seriously, I feel like some of you helped the Savior snatch me out of the gall dude! It would kill me if I found out anonymous was Crushed or some other sista like Bright Hope (god forbid) or Summer (though I doubt) and that I helped shew her off. I think we can always do better. I've been trying not to cuss as much. I just think openness fosters honesty and ironically comfortableness (is that a word?) and id hate to see that go..."
posted at 03:42:59 on September 15, 2010 by They Speak
I see both points anon and Speak    
"I personally have not been triggered in any way and feel safe here but there ovbiously have been some who have not. One poster said he or she knew it was not a good idea to read this one. No doubt this must be a place of recovery and there is no doubt that if anyone has taken time to follow they speak and his writing, they would see that he is really seeking the truth and this bolg has obviously added to his recovery. I think that is cool.

Anon is right in saying some will not feel safe here. I recon that we must be sensitive to that. I have given my opinion on this thread but that relates to me and those who are following a similar path to recovery as I am.

Lets not forget an important point: THERE ARE MANY COUPLES WHO ARE NOT KNEELING AND PRAYING TOGETHER EVERY NIGHT TO RECEIVE REVELATION FOR THEIR RELATIONSHIP. MANY MIGHT NOT QUALIFY FOR THE SPIRITS COMMUNICATION SO DON'T BE SURPRISED IF SOMEONE COMES HERE FOR "extra" HELP AND ADVISE. It is difficult telling an addict who is still struggling to be clean to go to the Lord holding his wife's hand to know what is permissable in the bedroom.
Lets also be sensitive to those who are in such a position.

That being said glad I am here with you guys, its a community I have gained so much from"
posted at 08:16:48 on September 15, 2010 by ruggaexpat
"and AND... Rugga rocks harder then a KISS concert in 1976! Thanks for always haven my (everyones) back bra. Your a good man. If I could meet your wife I'd have you off the couch and back in her arms in no time :)

p.s. Beclean your posts here were soma my fave. Frick momma you nailed it! I don't know how old you are, my guess is younger, but I think your gonna be a killer dad to young adult and adult kids. Shame you erased...guess I understand...kinda not really ;)"
posted at 12:48:07 on September 15, 2010 by They Speak
Thanks, They Speak    
"I appreciate your confidence and remarks, truly.

PS I removed my comments to avoid making people uncomfortable, but I kept them for my own private pondering..."
posted at 18:32:05 on September 15, 2010 by BeClean
Be clean...    
"I appreciate your comments too."
posted at 19:27:13 on September 15, 2010 by SEEINGLIGHT
Sorry, sorry, sorry!!!! And thanks all other!    
"I just wanted to say I am really sorry if I hurt anyone with my post. My intention was to help a brother out with an idea he could take to the Lord and his wife and discuss the possibility of it working in his marriage becuase it has in mine and obviously many others... At first reading responses I was horrified and though I had left out significant portions of what I was thinking. Howver, I'm pretty sure I made it clear that this wasn't a way out, or a fix for recovering addicts... I believe the word I used was band aid but thats a lot of scrolling...

I agree a lot with theyspeak. Thanks for your comments and the supportive comments of everyone else. The fact is that everything said here is take it or leave it. I knew when i posted that I was gonna get lit, and I did! Its not for everyone, but i agree with a lot of the other posters thats its not masturbation, it has to be done in the appropriate context and in the appropriate way. I don't mind people flaming me, but seriously no one has a right to belittle or downgrade a sister who has, with personal inspiration, chosen to help her husband in this way... Bring me down all you want, I am a disgusting pig, a sad excuse for a human being... I am sure there is nothing better for me then the fiery pits of hell. God should def not waste his time on me, obviously... But the precious daughters on this forum deserve none of your derision! GL Josh, and all of you.

My heart and prayers go out to everyone in this forum and to everyone dealing with this sick and disgusting disease. I know in my fallen and wicked state I deserve no forgiveness from any such as you, but I ask regardless. I am sorry if i hurt anyone, in the same triggers are going to happen on a recovery forum. The best advice I can give anyone is if you find a post triggering, stop reading it, just like any other trigger. It doesn't mean the site isn't safe, but maybe that particular thread should be avoided. "
posted at 21:12:58 on September 15, 2010 by Tjditch
RUGGA just trying to get you OFF THE COUCH    
"LOL Really!
The Lord does not care if you think you qualify for the spirit. He cares if you are humble enough to ask. Women crave Intimacy! Ask your wife to kneel in prayer with you and let her hear your humble heart ask for strength from your Father in Heaven, Her Father in Heaven, and Your Heavenly Father In Law. It will strengthen her as she hears your humble heart and earnest prayers. She will be able to discern your contrite spirit. She may refuse to pray with you at first, but keep trying the Lord will help you.
Spiritual Intimacy is just one form of Intimacy that is essential to a strong marital bond and Union. We women Need all the intimacy we can get. It is what greases our engines. :)) ( Spiritual, Emotional and Physical Intimacy.) When our Spiritual and Emotional Intimacy needs are cared for then the Physical becomes magical. It is the way the Lord planned it.
Lay All your pride aside. Show her you are willing to FIGHT for HER!!
Please do not take this as condemning or judging. I am just trying to help. I know what helped me and other women as well."
posted at 10:54:27 on September 17, 2010 by byourownhero
TS and others    
"I am not the anonymous who has discussed anything with you. I am just a wife trying to continue recovery and protect my family. You may not be here to be "safe" or "comfortable" but this site advertises itself as a place that seeks to provide a "safe" environment for addicts and loved ones. I guess I should disregard that. I just want to ask a question of you. Are you going to be the one who deals with the devastation someone feels when they find their partner viewing porn or doing something else sexually due to being triggered, or who end up losing their job because they "slipped" one more time because of what was read on a thread? The issue was appropriateness, if you are trying to provide a safe environment then not everything is appropriate and for someone to mention that, is not wrong. And then to be ridiculed? As was stated by someone that some things should not be posted in public forums. Your arugument about the scriptures, well true things are mentioned, but the details were left out. To ridicule others for how they are" handling/ dealing" is not safe for them. Addiction runs the gamit. Some will not be triggered, but we need to be careful of those who will be. That is not conservatism that is being thoughtful. There are those spouses who deal with much more than "porn" and are triggered far easier than others. Don't advertise as a place for all to come if it isn't true. Not all anonymous posters were the same poster. Maybe some did get angry, but some were saying please have compassion for others. What was stated before about what is going on in someone's bedroom is none of anyone elses business. If it is between the couple and the Lord then keep it there between the couple and the Lord, not a public forum. That is about "sacredness" not about being secretive. What is appropriate for one isn't appropriate for everyone. There are places where the women and men meet separately. You as a man will not be privy to what is said on the other side and since it is "confidential" a wife will not be sharing details with her husband, but what some people have gone through is basically like surviving nazi camps or worse. Also not all men will be totally honest even in that group for fear of judgment. You and others have basically said this place is not for everyone. So then maybe whoever founded this site needs to go back and reword their goals, so that others might be "warned" before going on. Also even in addiction meetings people are asked to please be mindful of what they are sharing. One of the best things said is if someone comes on asking for advice refer them to the Lord as hard as it is to say, He is the only one who can truly help them out, he knows them "intimately" and is the only one who can give them the appropriate advice for their situation. Recommending a book or source that may help is good, going into details maybe not so great. Some addicts play the "tell me what to do" game(not saying that about anyone here, don't know them well enough) then they avoid responsibility because after all if they take the "wrong advice " it isn't their fault. So if we are not careful we may "enable". Noone will know something isn't safe and should be avoided until they begin reading and then it is too late for some because they will not have the inner power to "turn away" that is why they were coming on, to gain strength. Please don't take this wrong, but if you are dealing with the porn aspect of this addiction, be grateful. I just ask that you remember that there are people who are much further down the road than porn and wish they could have stayed at porn. They are also struggling to make their way back. We need to be mindful of them. You may find this ridiculous but there are some who are triggered by an alternative to the word arriving. I know to some that seems ludicrous but sadly it is the reality for some. I know we can't be that "sensitive" but we can do things like not talk in any detail about what goes on in our bedrooms. The Savior loves them too. And it is a longer, harder road for them to get back, they chose to go down the road farther than others, but we need to be there for them as they crawl their way back."
posted at 16:35:38 on September 17, 2010 by Anonymous
Amen, Sister!    
"TJ, I really don't think you meant anything except to help. I understand that you are pretty new to recovery. We learn proper boundaries in the first year or two. You'll get it! Just keep doing the things that "sober" people do. I believe that it is never necessary to bring controversy to a recovery group setting. The basics are things that can be agreed on while that which may be controversial should be discussed one on one. TJ, you mentioned that you knew you were going to be lit up by your comment. You might want to double check your motives for posting it anyway. I know it was meant to help but maybe it was also motivated by something less altruistic. Either way, we are on the same team. I have nearly a decade clean and I constantly need correcting from my sponsor and others that have more experience. We live and learn. Good luck to you."
posted at 17:45:25 on September 17, 2010 by Anonymous
No one is here to make enemies. My apologies.    
"I agree anonymous. I got a little carried away with the hyperbole and describing those who were in effect blowing the whistle. No one need be ridiculed.

Nothing could be further from my intention then to say this place is not for everyone. From the most reserved house wife to the serial killer I would hope everyone here is able to achieve the common "goal of helping addicts recover through writing. [knowing that] Writing is very important for addicts and their loved ones, as it can assist us in sorting through our feelings and healing emotionally. [and trusting that] LDS Addiction Recovery seeks to provide a safe environment for addicts and loved ones to be able to share and, through sharing, assist others as well."

Again, I feel that everyone has done that here. And I appreciate all that has been said.

p.s. Im am one who has traveled far far down passed pornography the end of the road (only variation in the end of the road is left for this scoundrel). In answer to your question to me I would say; I certainly hope no one else deals with the devastation felt for the choices I've made. Regardless of who or what triggered me (and I too can trace some eternal set backs to triggers I had in recovery meetings). But the choices were mine and mine alone. The triggers no more made me do it then the devil and neither did those who, in trying to participate in the recovery process, perpetuated those triggers to me. They should feel no obligation to me nor like they weren't keeping with the standard of a safe environment. The unsafe environment was with in me. Ive always loved God but I had others before Him. Recovery is having Him to be my God. People here teach me how they do (and don't do) that in their own way and I invite that. To me nothing is safer. I hope/wish everyone the same faith."
posted at 04:36:07 on September 18, 2010 by They Speak

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***Anonymous User***     (login above to post UN-anonymously)

"If, through our unrighteous choices, we have lost our footing on that path, we must remember the agency we were given, agency we may choose to exercise again. I speak especially to those overcome by the thick darkness of addiction. If you have fallen into destructive, addictive behaviors, you may feel that you are spiritually in a black hole. As with the real black holes in space, it may seem all but impossible for light to penetrate to where you are. How do you escape? I testify the only way is through the very agency you exercised so valiantly in your premortal life, the agency that the adversary cannot take away without your yielding it to him. "

— Robert D. Hales

General Conference, April 2006