By They Speak
5/15/2010 5:54:13 PM
I'm in a pretty bad place. I've been in AR programs for years now and I just keep getting worse. I can remember first going to meeting hearing the guys talk who had commited adulty been to strip clubs and so on and thinking "well I'm glad that is not in me to do..." but knowing if king David could fall so could I so never fully putting it past myself. Well here I am having done all those things. there are few sinners i can't empithis with

My story down the dark path just behond pornography is a long one and maybe ill expound some other time. Right now however I'd prefer to just start where im at. Currently Im having an affair (can't believe im sayin it) thats been going on for about three months and if your reading this your the first person i've confessed this to besides God. Frankly I dont know how I can even consider myself having confessed to God for I feel i've yet to confess to myself because I fear by so doing I'll find pain behond my ability to deal with (yet another lie). Maybe Im masochistic but even rereading this all to breaf confession here makes me angry and wont to with hold, erase, and keep my unhappyness. I've never had an affair...out side of my heart and mind before this. I've been struggling with strip clubs off and on for (hard to believe now) about 2 years. My bishop was up on it all till 1 year ago. My wife was caught up through porn but divulging past that has never happened. I've been drinking and smoking pot to numb not just the pain but the whole gamet of reality. I'm failing out of school and work...and life

My life is in shambles. Don't know what to do. Suicide isn't an option...i just wanna get lost in other ways I guess...see if I get found. I know i'm gonna hear a lot of answers about just working the 12 steps, and maybe agency in referance to being found, and what not and I'll just agree in advance but...i've tried...and...i've still lost everything. I just need to make it (lossing everything) official...and then i fear i'll never come home.

I don't even know what the point of writing this is. Honestly I know i'm to pridful and afraid to listen to anyone. I guess im more just tryin to cut the load a bit. This back pack is gettin heavy which i've purposed so...I'd rather double it agian and deal with it then unload just so I can feel good enough to start pileing it on again like ive always done in the past. I want the husk to make me so sick I'll never come back to it. Tired of going home for a feel good lunch just so Im not to sick for my dark dinner. Unfortunatly the contrast of good and evil has never been enough for me either. I seem to need to experince evil intrensicly and thorowly before I'll wake up and realize it's not the frequency i want to vibrate at.

If all this seems like one big confusing contridiction, aside from the objective details, i'm right there with you. Totally confused...but for a long time i've just sat around and shrugged my shoulders in wide eyed bewilderment and thought "i don't know...i, i, i don't know". so feble as it may be at least i'm trying to define what "i don't know". okay im done.


You can NOT do it.    
"Dear They Speak, the fact that you are on this site at all makes me optimistic that you feel terrible about your actions, and you want desperately to change your life. However, I'll admit I can't tell exactly where you are in humbling yourself before God (which is the first very critical and absolutely necessary step). You obviously haven't been HONEST with anyone but us about the full extent of your problem. Therefore, I'm going to take a unique approach with this response, one that I have not taken before. Please suspend your judgment of my writing until you have read my entire response.

THEY SPEAK, you can't get better. You ARE lost.

You have chosen hell, and that is what you are going to get--in this life, and the next. Honestly, you are pathetic, and I've NEVER thought to say that to a fellow child of God. You know what is right, but you seem not to care. You know what's making you miserable, and you just keep doing it. You are so lukewarm, I feel I know exactly why God wants to spew you out of his mouth. If you were in my mouth, I'm sure you would taste like garbage. You are completely incapable of fixing your problems, and you NEVER, ever will.

Having written all that, I realize that my description of you (based only on reading your post) applies to myself a few years ago, and it probably applied to every other person on this site at one time in their life. Heck, it probably applies to EVERY person who hasn't yet accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and turned their lives completely over to him. It applies to every unrepentant sinner.

They Speak, you say you've been going to AR meetings for years, and you also say you expect answers about working the 12 steps. Based on your post, my guess is that in all those "years," you have NEVER even done step 1 with any real intent.

Have you hit rock bottom yet? Do you realize you are NOTHING? You are scum? You are worthless without God?! Do you still think that you are better than some other people? Or have you finally realized that you are the lowest of the low, and there is absolutely no reason God would want to save you...except that he loves you more than he loves himself?

It's true. You are nothing--a spit of garbage, as I've already described. You can't do anything right.

And yet, God loves you more than he loves himself. Not because of who you are or what little good you might have done, but because of who God is. If it were possible for God to save YOU to his Celestial Society of Gods simply by him ceasing to exist completely, I am confident he would do it. Jesus loves you so much, and wants you to have everything, that he would give up his very existence if it meant you would suddenly be clean, saved, and perfect.

He tried to do just that--in a garden, and on a cross. He went somewhere that no one else had ever come back from for you--he died and went to your hell. He would have stayed there for you, if it would have ensured your salvation. But he was so full of love for you death and hell couldn't keep him. He couldn't be held, and He lives today.

And all of that isn't enough to guarantee your salvation anyway. You mentioned agency. Your salvation just requires you to ACCEPT God's gift of salvation and GIVE your own life to him. And then HE will save you.

So, They Speak, reading your post makes me sick and very, very sad. You, like me, are nothing. But perhaps you haven't realized that yet, and you still think you are something. I hope you can see what a ZERO you are without God.

And I hope you can see how he, somehow, loves you more than he loves himself. PLEASE, They Speak, give yourself to this God, this loving Father. Trust him and do everything you can to serve him. It's time to finally admit that you, of yourself, are powerless to overcome your addictions and that your life has become unmanageable. It's time to put God first."
posted at 20:20:18 on May 15, 2010 by BeClean
A little softer?    
"My brother and wife have read my post, and they have suggested I was a bit harsh, They Speak. I ripped you up and down. Twice.

Please know, my dear brother, that I hate these sins that have completely destroyed your life and brought you such sorrow and pain that you just want to hide from it all. But mostly, I hate the fact that by your own admission, you are "too listen to anyone." I hate that pride. It prevents you from turning to God.

I want you to have joy and to rejoice in the glorious message of the atonement. But you don't seem to get it. So, I decided to present my message the way that I did. My message was this, in short:

1) Because of your sins, you have excommunicated yourself from God and cut yourself off from his glory. You are NOTHING without him. My harsh words were to help you realize this, because I fear you haven't already.
2) I am just like you.
3) Heavenly Father still loves you more than he loves himself. Turn to him COMPLETELY.

With Love,"
posted at 00:41:06 on May 16, 2010 by BeClean
All comments welcome    
"I gathered your intentions. I am looking for a wake up call to bring me out of my shock and realize/except what I've done and then take proper action.

I appreciate your comment. Hope others will do the same. Well I don't care whether they bring the hell fire or not just that they comment how ever they fill so inclined to do so. I'm certainly in no possition to be offended."
posted at 01:41:37 on May 16, 2010 by They Speak
This is where addiction takes us...    
"You are no different than any of us. We are all at different stages of addiction or recovery. The question is, "Are you finally done?"

Going to meetings isn't enough. We need to lose ourselves in the 12 Steps. That doesn't mean reading the manual and jotting a few things down. It means finding someone who has been clean from this addiction for many years and asking them to walk you through the Steps.

Some of us have to sink pretty low. But I feel like I need to tell you that it gets even worse. This disease is progressive. Don't kid yourself into thinking that you will stop with other women. The disease demands more. Things can get very perverted and quickly. Today is the ONLY day to begin to recover. Please make a start."
posted at 02:19:38 on May 16, 2010 by Anonymous
You know what to do    
"I get a sense from your post that you do know what to do. If you have any doubts, read no further than what you have read thus far in this thread.

I just want to emphasize one or two other points:

You are in hell right now and it sucks plain and simple, no agency no joy, no light.
I will describe my own experience because it is good for me to remember these things too. My hell was numbed by my lustful habits everyday. I was a coward, not willing to face reality, face my insecurity and emotions. Hell took on a new meaning when I confessed everything to my loved ones and those I hurt. It was at that point that I reached the depths of hell. The pain was immense. I was alone, lying in a fetal position balling my feable eyes out because the mental and emotional anguish was too hard to bear. Nothing and I mean nothing can compare with that pain. It is hell, it is also a long period of time to deal with, it does not go away and it does not diminish over night. You wife is broken, battered, starving for love, suffering something you will never fully comprehend and when my friend you finanlly see that and realize a little bit of her pain and realize at the same time it is because of your pride, selfishness, and wickedness, then hell really starts to kick in. It is unbearable and although you want to take it away from her (because her hell has just begun) she has to endure the unnecessary misery you have placed in her life. I hope you get a sense of what I am trying to describe.

If you ever become serious of confessing and forsaking the reality of your sexual sins, hell will take on a whole new meaning for you. This is scary to face, and I am sure you are feeling insecure and vulnerable about the thought of leaving behind your current life and finally telling your loved ones the truth.

I think you like me and every other addict are scared of facing life without the addiction. This thought brings with it a whole bunch of insecurities, perhapse a life single, lonely, beginning from scratch etc. We all have to face those fears, but the good news is that the savior is always there with his hands stretched out still bidding us to come unto him and partake of living waters. I promise and testify that you will thirst and hunger no more.

Do everything you can to stop thinking about yourself, think about your loved ones and how you are hurting them and taking their innocence away from them. If you are incapable like I was of doing this like I was then start serving them and doing things for them no matter how small it is. Brother fake it until you make it if you have to but do something and stop huffing and puffing your pain away with whoremongers.

One final thing, keep writing, I personally would like to read more from you. The more you write, the more you will process your true feelings and the more you will confess the stupidity of your choices.i testify to that.

God bless."
posted at 21:46:06 on May 16, 2010 by ruggaexpat
Sounds Familiar    
"Everything you confessed to, my husband confessed to me one early Sunday Morning over a year ago. I guess the biggest difference between me at that time and your wife is that I didn't even know about the pornography. I just knew something was really, really wrong. I figured it was me. I wasn't attractive enough, strong enough, funny enough, lovable enough. In a way, his confession freed me from all that, although the pain at the time was indescribable.

I can't say what will happen when you come clean and start again, again, as I believe you will. I stayed. For my children, because I had to try, and because I still loved him. But even if it doesn't work that way for you, the only way you can lose everything is to stay where you are and die in your sins. If you have children, you can set an example of repentance, or of giving up.

My husband was rebaptized two months ago. It is still so hard, and I am working everyday to trust him as he works every day to fight temptation, but our life together has a sweetness that is unrecognizable from the sham we used to live.

A few weeks before he was rebaptzed, I prayed for what felt like the millionth time that I could forgive him, and that God would, and I was filled with an overwhelming sense of forgiveness at last. Not mine, but God's forgiveness for him. I can't describe it other than that it was sweet and powerful and endless. That waits for you. I know it. Now go take it, no matter what the consequence.

God bless you dear brother,
You can do this!"
posted at 20:13:58 on May 17, 2010 by Anonymous
Thank you    
"I can't really describe how I feel about your reply...thank you. It effected continues too. I can't say how I feel because I'm not done feeling or taking it in. From what little I gather you are a real and wise person. At the risk of reciting tired platitude for powerful women i'm confident and feel to say that D&C 25:1-3 aplys to you. I'm ultra sorry about your husaband. Sorry I've followed suit.

I don't know where for sure i'll go from here but I asure you my direction has at least been nudged to a stonger coarse because of your faith."
posted at 09:11:28 on May 18, 2010 by They Speak
Go the right way    
"Dear They Speak,

Anonymous' post was incredibly positive, optimistic, forgiving, and charitable. It is what we ALL want to hear from our spouses as addicts. If we truly repent, confess, forsake, and change, forgiveness awaits from our loving God.

But, my brother, Anonymous' comments do NOT apply to you.

That is, they do not apply to you yet.

They apply to her husband, who confessed, forsook, repented, and was rebaptized. You must do all of the same things for those words to apply to you.

So, when you say, "I don't know where for sure i'll go from here," with all the love I have, I say: Go to your knees in sincere prayer for divine help and mercy; Go to your bishop to sincerely confess; Go back to group meetings and begin to forsake; Go to your wife in complete humility, expecting nothing; Go forward putting God first and serving him with all your heart, mind, and strength.

The things Anonymous said apply to a Son of God who has made terrible mistakes and repented through the atoning blood of Christ. That isn't you yet, but it surely can be. Right now, you are nothing, and you are in hell. You will remain in hell and none of anonymous' kind words will apply to you if you fail to start the repentance process right NOW. Where should you go? Go to God...he still loves you.

So do I. Love,"
posted at 09:24:10 on May 18, 2010 by BeClean
"I have never felt to leave hell by fearing it. BECLEAN i'm sorry but you are no longer helping. Thank you for your comments but I've read The Miracle or Forgivness and don't need it reinforced at this time. Hearing it from an apostle is plenty enough. And Im sure ill rightly hear it in court from the elders in Isrial who are duely ordained to judge me. I think rather I need to focus on the "brasen serpent" not simply the fact that i've been bitten and have venom running through my vains...thank you for the reminder though.

I know her final paragraphs aply to me only in loo-al of my repentance. I'm greatful only to hear a story of what could be. Not what is. I'm not so terribly decived as to think all is well in Zion.

Again thank you for replying and please don't stop commenting though I may not be as meek as I could be toward your message. It may infact be what I need to hear."
posted at 10:19:48 on May 18, 2010 by They Speak
Re-read your comment    
"I may have jumped the gun a bit. I see that there is more concerning my focus on the "brasen serpent" in your comment then I realized. In fact I supose most of it has to do with turning to God. Which I apreciate.

I suppose i'm just leary of any influence to beat myself up...and at first blush that was what I felt from your response. Perhaps you dissagree but I do not believe beating myself up is of God nor has it ever been. And more important I know it has never helped me repent but rather has drawn me back to the mire. My sins are, will be, horrowing enough without my trying to help it along by beating myself sensless. I truely believe with my whole heart, from my experience, "Godly sorrow" is something truely different then mer guilt and it's constituents. It is divine. And one more time yes I realize I wont feel Godly sorrow till i've admited what i've done and where i'm at...0. I guess that is why my knee jerk reaction was to respond the way I did. "
posted at 10:48:20 on May 18, 2010 by They Speak
Why I Act the Way I Do    
"I do not believe in beating yourself up, either, They Speak. When we are trying to repent, we are often our own worst enemy. We tell ourselves we are the worst people on the earth, unworthy of love. Of course, that does not help. The fact is that when we are TRYING to repent, we are doing MUCH better than the worst person on the earth--the person who has no desire to repent. Repentance is what GOOD people do.

I believe that if a person knows he did wrong, is sorry he did wrong, and is trying earnestly to repent and make it right, then the correct response is NOT to beat him up when he falls, but to cry with him, love him, help him, and be on his team.

Forgive me, They Speak, if I have misjudged you. I felt through your posts that you know you have done wrong, but you are not prepared to "try earnestly to repent and make it right." You have not confessed your sins, and you do not appear in your posts to be truly trying the steps of repentance. You seem to be saying, "I know what I should be doing, but I don't know if I'm going to do it." THAT is why I have been so harsh, my brother. My comments were meant to encourage you to start trying.

If you ARE prepared to try earnestly, if you ARE prepared to give yourself to God, then I have misspoken, and I apologize. Most of the people on this site are trying their hardest to do the right thing, even though it is VERY hard for them, and many of them are still struggling and fall frequently. I do not beat them up, because I can sense their sincere desire to take the next step, even though they keep failing.

With you, I could not sense that sincere desire to do the right thing. I felt like you know what is right, but you have very little desire to do it. That's why I have reacted the way I have. If, however, you have a desire to repent, you will find me very understanding and forgiving. I will be on your team completely. Like Anonymous, I will build you up and remind you that you are a Son of God. If you are repenting, you are a Good man.

So, are you ready to try to take the next step? Are you ready to do what you know you should? I'm not asking you to be perfect. Out of love for you, I'm asking you to admit that you can't do it alone, and then turn your life over to God and fill it with the things he wants you to be doing. Soon, you will have the Spirit of God with you again, and you will begin to receive all the blessings your loving Heavenly Father has for you."
posted at 11:06:11 on May 18, 2010 by BeClean
We don't shoot our wounded...    
"Attacking never works."
posted at 13:52:34 on May 18, 2010 by Anonymous
Good mental image, anonymous    
"Attacking or shooting our wounded never helps them get better.

When I see a wounded soul, if he appears to know he's in dire straights, I rush to his aid and comfort. If he doesn't even know he's bleeding, or he appears to be apathetically allowing his blood to drain out through the wound, that's a different story...

I think what I was trying to do was yell at one of our wounded brothers, "HEY!! You shot yourself! You're bleeding all over the place! I think it hit a major artery! You are going to die in a matter of seconds, if we don't get the Surgeon in here right away! Don't just sit there, do something!"

Of course, the analogy is not perfect. You don't really yell like that at the victim of a gunshot wound. But 1) most victims are not apathetic when shot, 2) we're not talking about a real gunshot wound, and 3) I didn't really yell, either.

I just hope all of us in serious circumstances like They Speak will immediately Look to God and Live. Our Savior is the Surgeon, sincere prayer is the 911 call, and repentance (including 12 steps) is the prescription."
posted at 14:49:56 on May 18, 2010 by BeClean
Approach is everything    
""when moved upon by the Holy Ghost"...were you moved upon before you repoved? Did you follow up with an increase in love? Is it enough to write a book about what a distastful peice of adulterous apathetic gabage someone is and then express in a 3 word sentence something about love or acting out of love and calling me brother here and there?..and then to all but discount someone elses "showing increase in love" or act of charity? If you think you were and it is enough then I have no argument. Other wise you are out of order and out of place and should expect anyone you aproach as such, whether your talkin to President Hinckley or an adulterous heathen like myself, to feel contention and to esteam you as their enemy.

My mean old grandma (she was the radest) had a mean old saying "there's nothing like a reformed whore". Well honestly your bringin that to life for me...and if I ever do repent I hope i'll be a little more "long suffering" with those luke warm souls out there then you have been with me. You "suffered" threw what?...a whole post before you let me have it with out asking one single question (ya know like a Sugereon? "Where does it hurt?" "What happened" "What brings you to my office" Where are you shot"...i've never cared for asumptive doctors in real life either...they never know as much as they think) to really find out where I was actually at (after all this is probly a little more then one angry dejected post deep dont ya think) or more importantly to build report for yourself so I, the at risk soul, wouldn't take offense and stay "bleeding from his major artirys" just because you were pokin in all the wrong spots or it hurt to damn much for me to stop squirming and let you do your job...nevermind the Master Physician is always near and has everything under control. As a Physicians assistant it's not good enough for you to just "sense" and "feel" based on one post the patient is not sincer or ready to repent. You should KNOW something like that before you proceed and if you really cared for more then just speaking your mind I'd think you would of taken the precious time to ask questions to read more and consider CAREfully and assess what the best aproach might of been so as to "encourage" me to wellness rather then discourage and repulse me... Look beclean I'm only telling you this because, and this is the truth, because I know your well intentioned, have a strong handle on what it means to repent and also what it takes to do it and I just think you could help a lot more people if you could control your zeal and mantain the power and influence of the presthood threw persuasion AND gentelness AND pure knowledge and people skills, regardless of whether YOU think the patient is ready to heal or not, rather then "compultion" as out lined in 121. I know you have what it takes to continue to be and become an even better Physicians assistant...with love dear brother thats the reason im telling you all this.

You see that example above? Kindof in your face isn't it? But still drives home the message. However, well intentioned or not in my opinion it is so offensive (like sports "offensive"...or attack) it naturally invites defense. Which often turns to contention. I hope it doesn't put you on the defense (and if I ment that a little more or care for more then just speaking my mind right now id probly erase everything and start over and find a better aproarch...but i guess im gonna let my lazyness make an unloving hipocrite of me) because toward the end I actually realized I did believe what I was saying and feel if you take stock in it at all maybe you could be even better at what you seem to enjoy doing on here...helping people...i have read some of you other posts and know your a well meaning good man.

ANYWAAAAAY now that I've thouroughly taken account of the mote in becleans eye that I cant even see because there is like 20 million beams in my own..."
posted at 02:51:26 on May 20, 2010 by They Speak
Worthless Rant    
"Maybe its just getting late and im starting to lose my barings on a proper apraisal of this whole thing...but I feel like my last comment was a little off the handle...and as best I can tell there was an understanding prior to my writing it. However i'm leaving it because I want to see how pridful and erogant I can be...even under the current cercumstanses namely that im an adulter and should be excepting harsh realitys and all good and bad life experienceses like a Lamb to the slaughter. The morning after the first time I commited adultry I genuinly commited (i think even in prayer) to never judging another person for anything they ever did no matter how big but to remember my own sins forever...and here I am judging over something insignificant. I have, never have, nor will I ever have the right...and if there is anything good that can come from this expeirience it is the strong humbling reminder of that reality.

...sorry beclean. I really do understand what your trying to drive home...and as much as i want to fight against it, and believe me i do...its working

maybe it will help to let you know my feelings on my repentence or to clearify my above mentioned feelings...ya know like i would to a physician ;) ill proceed tomorrow."
posted at 03:28:04 on May 20, 2010 by They Speak
Leave it...    
"It's a harsh lesson but one that needs to stand. Way too much pride and "know-it-all-ness" on this sight. We need to be careful how we treat people. The newcomer in recovery may end up being our sponsor at some later date. Why risk the hypocrisy?"
posted at 04:16:43 on May 20, 2010 by Anonymous
Hang in there    
"They Speak,

Thanks for writing. I agree with many comments in this thread, and though there are so many opinions flying around including my own, it is just great that we can all just hammer these falsehoods and lies out of our individual lives. That to me is the real progress, killing one lie at a time, gives me more space to cultivate truth. My life has been one hell of a big lie. The web of deception has been immense. I need to constantly inspect my inner self to ensure those damn spider remains gone for good. My inspection involves constant writing and talking with others.

I guess ultimately we all know what we need to do and although we need reminding at times, it is about making a decision and living with it."
posted at 08:05:18 on May 20, 2010 by ruggaexpat
Thank you, They Speak    
"I appreciate your openness, your feelings, and your reproof. I will look back over my post (which I remember writing pointedly to you AND to me), and see how I could change my approach in the future.

As I recall, when I wrote to you, I DID, in fact, feel inspired in my writing, and I recall feeling an overwhelming hatred towards the sins that were causing you and me to destroy ourselves and an overwhelming amount of love Heavenly Father has for you and for me, despite our terrible mistakes. I tried to express that "increase in love," but perhaps I failed. Again, I will look for how I can improve, based on your comments.

Please know that I am motivated purely out of love for you, my friend. I have nothing to gain personally. I want to see you happy and clean. As I said before, "Forgive me, They Speak, if I have misjudged you."

posted at 12:23:04 on May 20, 2010 by BeClean
"I have reread everything I have written, and I now feel I should not have come back with my third post. And my fourth and fifth posts were meant to defend my third; they would not be here, either, if I had not posted three times.

Thank you, They Speak, for your charitable assessment of my motivation, despite my approach. I would love to hear your feelings on your repentance, as you have indicated. And since I now know you are, in fact, trying to repent, you can count on me to be much more understanding, supportive, patient, gentle and kind. Again, forgive my errors. I have MANY!!"
posted at 12:53:55 on May 20, 2010 by BeClean

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"My brethren who are caught in this addiction or troubled by this temptation, there is a way. Don’t accommodate any degree of temptation. Prevent sin and avoid having to deal with its inevitable destruction. So, turn it off! Look away! Avoid it at all costs. Direct your thoughts in wholesome paths. Please heed these warnings. Let us all improve our personal behavior and redouble our efforts to protect our loved ones and our environment from the onslaught of ography that threatens our spirituality, our marriages, and our children. "

— Dallin H. Oaks

General Conference, April 2005