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Money
By maddy
11/2/2013 1:16:45 PM
Part of my husband's addiction is with spending. He spends money very frivolously and lies about it to fill that 'hole' in his life just the same as porn. Honestly, he justifies this one a little more than pornography and has made very little effort to work on it because the pornography problem is so big in his eyes. His recovery is not strong with either right now. It is good he is focusing on one, but the financial hardship that the his spending problem has brought our family to the brink of disaster over the years, time and time again.

I do not want to be controlling about money. It is just as much a codependent trigger for me as other areas and I know I need to work on it. But I am also scared of the practical aspects of finances, because he has no control when it comes to spending.

I know other's have struggled with this to greater or lesser degrees. Can anyone give me some practical advice about how to protect my family's finances when my husband, who is the primary bread winner, has a spending addiction?

Comments:

Well,    
"This may not be what you're looking for but...if you've got time. It's not practical. But Jesus is often VERY impractical.

( http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1045&index=1 )

Ah!, just read a smidge of it (it's been awhile)! So good. It's a wonderfully grace based perception of economics that I think accords perfectly with what we come to understand in the 12 steps. Work we must but the lunch is free could be said work we must but sobriety is free. Interesting..."
posted at 11:09:08 on November 3, 2013 by they_speak
How long will you keep trying?    
""... I never counselled a woman to follow her husband to the Devil." Brigham Young 1848"
posted at 22:44:58 on November 5, 2013 by Anonymous
Till 70 x 7    
""... how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him?..."
"... Until seventy times seven." Jesus Christ AD 32

Perhaps I'm overstepping my bounds by editing this rule at all, but I feel it probably only applies to husbands who claim or appear to be trying (e.g., they attend meetings, they confess openly and honestly, they ask forgiveness, etc.). It does not apply to abusive, dishonest, unfaithful, literally adulterous husbands who are ruining their own family and marriage without any apparent remorse.

Jesus went on to tell a marvelous story to illustrate why we should be so forgiving, and then he taught about marriage and divorce. I recommend Matthew 18:21-19:11.

Even husbands (or wives) who are struggling now have great worth. They are sons of God, beings of light, far more valuable than a lost sheep."
posted at 07:18:40 on November 6, 2013 by beclean
490 times.    
"Wasn't 70 X 7 the Hebrew rendition of our "a million times"? It's a figure of speech if I'm not mistaken. Kind of ambiguous perhaps just short of infinity. Or infinity. Basically ya know you're supposed to forgive like a million times.

Btw, I don't think that means you have to stay married at all...but what do I know.

Also, did you read that article Maddy? Like I said it's not practical but I think it may offer a slight paradigm shift that you may find peace in. I don't know."
posted at 12:45:52 on November 6, 2013 by they_speak
Boundaries Maddy    
"In recovery we have to set boundaries. For spouses....this is what makes us feel safe. So analyze your financial situation and set appropriate boundaries around your finances. Remember a boundary is what you as a spouse is going to do. A boundary when set and revealed, if broken,
has to be acted upon or else it is just a threat. What will help you to feel safe Maddy? The consequence has to be something you can go through with. You may need support for this.
Love to you,"
posted at 14:02:22 on November 6, 2013 by Hero
Hero    
"Miss You
Love You
Angel"
posted at 19:06:27 on November 6, 2013 by angelmom
Forgiveness misunderstood / Porn is a Satanic practise!    
"Everyone must forgive, even our enemies? "Yes of course" but you have never been counselled to keep sleeping with the enemy?

Brigham Young also said "Don't keep taking the serpent that bit you back to your bosom"

Why? because it will keep biting you!

It seems that Maddy would be counselled completely different if her husband was continually delving into witch craft even after he was ticking the box of going to church and to the ARP meetings?

However a lot of people here it seems just tick the box of church and ARP meeting and broadcast it and then go and delve back into their even worse Satanic witch craft called "Pornography?"

By continually delving into this craft You are following Satan and he is your master!

David O Mackay counselled similar to Brigham Young when he declared that "Woman should only follow their husbands in righteousness and never in unrighteousness."

Most of the people who delve into witch craft will have a much better standing at the judgment bar of Jesus Christ because they do not have the knowledge of the restored Gospel they have not entered into covenants, have not entered the temple and they are delving into a much lesser craft than the diabolical soul / family destroying craft of Pornography.

BOUNDARIES MADDY!"
posted at 20:29:00 on November 11, 2013 by Anonymous
Not sure how to help - but here I go    
"Maddy,
I wish I could say something that might help you. I feel from what you wrote that I might be experiencing some of the same feelings, except that it is with my wife and money. She has told me several times . . God can bless us with what we need so I don't worry about the finances. Growing up in a large family where money was very tight that was not the way I viewed money so it has been difficult for me. We are in a really tight situation in large part due to some of her choices, but also because of my inability to communicate with her about my feelings. I wanted her to be happy, to give her everything in the world so I couldn't say no. In addition I am struggling with and addiction to pornograpbhy so I think she felt somewhat justified in her financial choices. this drove a bigger wedge between the two of us. I wish I had an answer to your situation. What I am trying to do is forgive, to let go of the worry and give it to God as she does. My particular challnege is that my body is begning to fail me so I worry about my ability to provide for my family, and then worry about the day when I'll be in a wheelchair permanently changing my life completely.

After the long answer I remember what my Bishop said years ago when we went to him. He said at some point someone is going to have to forgive and move on, he said that one of us was going to have to show mercy and kindness to other one. that try as hard as we could we couldn''t control the other person. I guess that is the scarry part of life, realizing you have given yourself to another person with the risk of being let down. I guess that is why a relationship with Christ is so much more important because while our spouse or family will let us down, Christ is supposed to be there for us all the time. I say that supposed to with bitter of bitterness in my voice because I am working through some things righ now, not sure if God is there, if the SAvior is there and only holding on for dear life hoping that they will be there when it really counts. best wishes to you and I hope this helped"
posted at 21:16:12 on November 11, 2013 by sjanderson
Witchcraft?    
"Aussie, my friend, we weren't talking about devils and intentionally satanic practices. We were taking about addictions that, by definition, seem impossible for addicted people to stop, no matter how hard they try or how good they are. Yes, they destroy families. And that is the consequence. I don't believe for a second that God is as judgemental about people's addictions as you just were, calling addicts worse than witches. How about some compassion? People get trapped in a cycle and can't figure out how to cope with life in new ways, that's all. They are not wicked and bad because they are attracted to naked pictures that release powerfully addictive chemicals—they are normal! And they CAN overcome, by finding healthy ways to release those chemicals. I get so frustrated with people who point fingers at sinners and call them devil worshippers and worse. Look, we all sin. We all need Jesus. We all worship our favorite other Gods, which makes us all worse than prostitutes (see Ezekiel 16). That's pretty bad. We are all that bad, without exception. And yet, God still loves us enough to sacrifice his son for us. We still all have infinite worth. Even you. Even Maddy's husband. Wow! Think of it. God loves even the sinners. Especially the sinners.

Oh, and question marks should only be used at the end of questions?"
posted at 22:07:56 on November 11, 2013 by beclean
PS Shame    
"Telling porn addicts they are worse than devil worshippers and witches is exactly the kind of shame that keeps them from opening up to their spouses and seeking the help they need from bishops and others.

They are children of God who are currently out of balance. They need to learn how to take better care of their body, mind, spirit, and stress levels and turn themselves over to God. They need to trust Him completely and turn to him (12 steps of repentance). Those who do are anything but devils. They are righteous examples who will overcome the world through the atonement of Christ."
posted at 22:19:23 on November 11, 2013 by beclean
...    
posted at 23:39:55 on November 11, 2013 by they_speak
No Consequences!    
"If a person keeps delving into this craft called pornography and his wife and family stays with him / her no matter what evil is brought into the home but their spouse he / she keeps threatening I will leave you next time and has been saying this for many years now. Her husband knows that she is not going to leave and he knows there is really not any life changing consequences to his actions so how will he ever change and truly recover?

The pleasure of the priestcraft always will bring more adrenaline and pleasure than the consequences he is receiving in this life because his wife / husband family stays and enables him even though his dragging his whole family down to hell in the process or bringing hell to them.

You BECLEAN seem like a really nice person but you are also enabling these men and women to continue with this life style by always justifying what they are doing as being no big deal. Why would you do that?

Has anyone ever asked Maddy how she feels and if she feels she needs to leave him?

Oh and by the way last time I checked spelling and punctuation errors was not a sin but you probably think it is up there with delving into the Satan's priestcraft tool called Pornography because that is how justified this sin has become."
posted at 00:01:32 on November 12, 2013 by Anonymous
Weaknesses    
"Everyone has weaknesses and there are two roads.

The first road is God's and he makes the weak things strong and blesses us and shines the light of Christ into our lives. Then there is Satan's road and he uses our weakness against us by tempting us and ultimately making us succumb to the temptation. Eventually becoming addicted to succumbing to our WEAKNESSES

The weaknesses we have are weaknesses and we do have a choice. They are not predispositions, they are not diseases, they are weaknesses and nothing more. If you choose to take Satan's road and succumb to his priestcraft you have let your weaknesses control you and now you have an addiction of succumbing to your weaknesses.

Psychology and psychiatry enable people to have an never ending excuse for succumbing to their WEAKNESSES by telling them and the world that these people are diseased and sick and have no self control. One continual lie after another."
posted at 00:20:38 on November 12, 2013 by Anonymous
Speak    
"I can't figure out which talk you're linked to on my phone. Can you state the name/speaker so I can read it?"
posted at 06:26:58 on November 12, 2013 by beclean
Aussie    
"1. I couldn't care less how you spell or use punctuation. I was only mentioning it because it gave you away, along with your constant talk of devil worship.

2. I never said Maddy shouldn't leave her husband. I don't know her situation well enough to make that call, and neither do you! Reread everything I wrote on this thread, and you will see I always made room for the possibility that she should leave, if that is what the Holy Ghost tells her to do when reproving with sharpness.

3. Pornography may very well involve evil spirits, but not all those who are caught in its trap are devil worshippers.

4. I never once suggested that it's OK for people to view porn. It's wrong, no question. It's also natural (and the natural man is an enemy to God... so we need to put it off). But the people who do it are still children of God with endless potential and incredible value. God loves them, even if you don't.

5. When a porn addict who never recovered stands before God, I believe God will be full of compassion and sorrow that he lost his family, his money, and so many other blessings to this pernicious evil. Those consequences are real. God will not then shame the person and call him a devil worshipper.

6. The same consequence will happen for all other sinners who don't repent, including those whose sin is gluttony, greed, hate, etc. He will sorrow for our losses and unhappiness caused by our actions. He will not spew forth vitriol and hate. Our actions will have made it impossible for us to become like him, and he will be truly sorry for that.

7. The only thing I'm enabling people to do is have hope — hope that God still loves them and accepts them. All sinners need that hope, it's what the gospel is about. Please don't destroy the hope of the gospel by insisting that this particular brand of sinning is different than all the others. As President Uchtdorf says, don't judge me because I sin differently than you do. Unless you are perfect, which I don't think is possible in this life, we are in EXACTLY the same position — we are beggars and debtors who need God's grace and forgiveness. And numerous stories he tells indicate he is slow to give grace and forgiveness when we obsess about other people's mote, when we point at sinners in the temple and thank God we are better than that, and when we fail to forgive those who wrong us. While we are commanded to forgive everyone, God, will forgive us only as often as we ask.


8. Your sins, whatever they are, are no better or worse than mine or anyone else on this site. The only difference perhaps is that we on this site admit we are vile sinners, and we are trying desperately with all our hearts to change. I believe that is the definition of a good person. Since all men are sinners, the good ones are those who are trying to change.

9. I don't know whether you or Maddy's husband are trying to change, but I do know it's not my place to judge. I also know I probably should not start calling you names because you sin differently than me. Finally, I know that even though your sins are reprehensible, vile, and an affront to God, and even though you struggle with punctuation, Aussie, you are still a child of God with infinite worth. I don't care what your sins are. Jesus overcame them for you, if you will just turn to him. He still loves you!

And that's all I'm enabling. I'm allowing everyone the right to feel that God still loves and desires them, no matter what they've done. They can still turn to him for forgiveness."
posted at 06:57:49 on November 12, 2013 by beclean
Yeah dude    
"It's the Jeffery R. Holland talk that I think you mentioned around conference time Like a Broken Vessel. Try YouTube it may pull up a mobile format:

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNAx2Rgq-uI )

Here's a little snippet though I quote reluctantly because the whole things it so...bah!, SO good. Kills me. Just kills me.

"The Apostle Peter wrote that disciples of Jesus Christ are to have “compassion one of another.”1 In that spirit I wish to speak to those who suffer from some form of mental illness or emotional disorder, whether those afflictions be slight or severe, of brief duration or persistent over a lifetime. We sense the complexity of such matters when we hear professionals speak of neuroses and psychoses, of genetic predispositions and chromosome defects, of bipolarity, paranoia, and schizophrenia. However bewildering this all may be, these afflictions are some of the realities of mortal life, and there should be no more shame in acknowledging them than in acknowledging a battle with high blood pressure or the sudden appearance of a malignant tumor.""
posted at 07:19:47 on November 12, 2013 by they_speak
Thanks!    
"."
posted at 07:22:15 on November 12, 2013 by beclean
I guess I've had this argument before    
"I give up. I won't fight this one with you again.

http://www.ldsar.com/ViewBlog.aspx?EntryId=20652"
posted at 08:24:27 on November 12, 2013 by beclean
thoughts    
"I am actually laughing right now! I guess if you don't laugh you cry, right? ;)

I am only going to comment on my husband and I's conclusions. He is willing to admit he has a problem, so we are in a good starting place. He agrees to work with a cash only system and we'll do a daily reconciliation at the end of each day with itemized receipts. Our goals are that this will increase our communication, openness, and transparency.

None of this will necessarily fix the addiction but we'll treat it like having an internet filter....just good common sense.

I will work on NOT being controlling and distrusting through submitting my fears to Jesus. I will work on keeping a perspective of protecting him as part of my family with respect even in his weakness. He will work on filling the whole in his heart with Jesus instead of impulsive behaviors including spending.

I guess that is all any of us have.

One last comment: My ARP missionary facilitator talks about "the hole the wind blows through". I've come to understand that to mean the emptiness in each of us that we spend this entire life trying to fill. You and I are here because we tried to fill it with junk for a long time, but now we are trying to fill it with Christ.
One of the things I seem to always try to fill up my soul with is judging others. By doing that, I feel better about myself (falsely) for a short period of time....only to crash later and need more judging to get me through later.
Sometimes I justify judging because I KNOW I am right. I know that what they are doing is wrong. I know it! The scriptures support my opinions. I am justified. And I often tell them what they need to do, or think, or be. And you know what....when I start thinking that way. I am always wrong.
God gave us the ability to discern good from evil. But the only conclusion we can come to with that discernment for our brothers and sisters is to choose absolute love. I've met prostitutes, crack heads, sexaholics and the rest that were a thousand times more righteous than me with my codependency addiction, even at their worst. Like Clean said, they may be out of balance in some areas, but many of them know Jesus better than I because they are TEACHABLE in their brokenness.

Speak - I read about 3/4 of your article. I am an evolution junkie btw, but I'll post my .02 when I finish it. I totally loved that talk by Holland too.

Hero I am so glad you chimed in. You are my Boundary guru. <3

I know that he can sneak an additional credit card with out me knowing for a short period of time, but if we fall down, I guess we'll just get back up and keep trudging. I would never divorce this husband of mine unless God Himself told me to. God has called me to love my hubby and forgive him. That is all I need to worry about doing. Holding a boundary of financial accountability I think can be a great act of love. Hubby said he would be willing to 'pay back' money he had addictively spent, by personally cutting back in areas and even working other jobs to make restitution. I am satisfied that he is trying."
posted at 08:38:28 on November 12, 2013 by maddy
Evolution junkie eh?    
"...I knew I liked you. If you haven't checked out Before Adam by, yet again, Nibs himself that will wreck your world i.e. it's awesome.

p.s. Opera and folk are NOT nerdy! Lol, I was just listening to Bizet - Carmen - Habanera (the aria "L'amour est un oiseau rebelle") and thought I'd peep what the devil she was saying...WRECKED my world. So good! And I thought it was appropriate here (on the site not necessarily this thread except that you like opera so here ya go) because it seems as I've read and searched my own feelings we often crave love - the feelings of love in particular romantic love etc etc - and even try to sometimes force it. Which I believe serves only to stomp out what ever cinders of love may have been kindled to a flame. I think here we have a lesson in the nature of things and perhaps understanding we can better approach it. Namely, I think, by letting go. Allowing. Trusting. Something to think about I guess...

When will I love you?
Good Lord, I don't know,
Maybe never, maybe tomorrow.
But not today, that's for sure.

Love is a rebellious bird
That none can tame,
And it is well in vain that one calls it
If it suits him to refuse
Nothing to be done, threat or prayer.
The one talks well, the other is silent;
And it's the other that I prefer
He says nothing but he pleases me.

(Love is a rebellious bird) Love...
(that none can tame,) Love...
(and you can call him, although it is, quite in vain,) Love...
(because it suits him not to come) Love...

Love is a gypsy's child,
It has never, never known the law;
If you do not love me, I love you;
If I love you, take guard yourself (Take guard yourself!)
If you do not love me,
If you do not love me, I love you (Take guard yourself!)
But if I love you, if I love you
Take guard yourself

The bird you hoped to catch
Beat its wings and flew away ...
Love is far, you can wait for it
You no longer await it, there it is
All around you, swift, swift,
It comes, goes, then it returns ...
You think to hold it fast, it flees you
You think to flee it, it holds you

(All around you, swift,) Love...
(It comes, goes, then it returns) Love...
(You think to hold it fast, it flees you) Love...
(You think to flee it, it holds you) Love...

Love is a gypsy's child,
it has never, never known the law;
if you love me not, then I love you;
if I love you, take guard yourself (Take guard yourself!)
if you love me not,
if you love me not, then I love you (Take guard yourself!)
but if I love you, if I love you
take guard yourself

(Love is a gypsy's child,)
(it has never known the law;)
(if you love me not, then I love you;)
(if I love you, take guard yourself) (Take guard yourself!)

if you love me not,
if you love me not, then I love you (Take guard yourself!)
but if I love you, if I love you
take guard yourself (Take guard yourself)

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jgR5zBv8Rc )"
posted at 18:46:00 on November 14, 2013 by they_speak
Btw    
""I mean all that in term of the song being likened unto ourselves...i'm not sure the original idea behind the lyrics was what I was going for. Ha!, i'm pretty sure in context of the Opera itself what i'm saying is the exact opposite. I'm not totally sure though. But, anyway, like, lets just allow ourselves to love our spouses or rather allow love to take it's natural course with our spouses. That's all i'm saying.""
posted at 18:46:18 on November 14, 2013 by they_speak


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"Jesus rejected temptation. When confronted by the great tempter himself, Jesus "[yielded] not to the temptation”. He countered with scripture. Gospel commandments and standards are our protection also, and like the Savior, we may draw strength from the scriptures to resist temptation."

— D. Todd Christofferson

General Conference October 2006