Print
Here comes the discussion of possession
By beclean
10/5/2013 4:31:03 PM
Elder Holland is taking about depression... in the apostles and prophets and in many others. He's talking about emotional disabilities like schizophrenia, etc. Surely he's going to tell us all about the evil spirits that cause all such problems and how to cast then out.

OK, now I've listened longer.

It sounds like he's not going to mention them at all.

Instead, he's taking about getting medical and priesthood help. He's talking about being kind and patient with those struggling. He's talking about having balance in life, taking care of our health and getting rest. He's taking about our infinite worth, regardless of our struggles. God will overcome all this for us.

In my opinion, his talk equally applies to all struggles that are overcome by the atonement.

Comments:

FAITH, LOVE, GRACE, COMPASSION, and His Sacrifice    
"This conference is filled with it!!! Just as I posted my testimony in TheySpeak's "3 day" post, I realized that I was in good company. I think I will re-post it in a separate blog.

I live with hope because of Jesus Christ. I thank Him in all things, I praise Him throughout my day and night, I need Him every minute and every hour. Through Him I find healing!!! I am not ashamed to say it, and give all credit to Him for it!

I will testify of Him as long as He will give me breath!!!

By Love, Grace"
posted at 16:56:30 on October 5, 2013 by angelmom
Well said, BECLEAN    
"I've made this same observation several times in different blogs. While I don't rule out the possibility of possession or of unclean spirits, and I would never tell someone that they haven't been healed of such things -- that would be the nadir of arrogance -- the brethren have never mentioned casting out of unclean spirits in any talks on addictions that I've yet heard or read.

Addictions make us humble, if we allow them to do so. And the struggle to overcome them -- even if we don't completely succeed in this life -- makes us much stronger.

I don't know the answers. No one does but God. I will continue to struggle and hope for recovery some time in the future. I will also try to repair my mental health (depression) rather than become despondent over why I have this debilitating illness, an illness that completely isolates me from the Spirit through no fault of my own.

Some have miraculous cures or recoveries, but I'm afraid that for many of us, it's a struggle 'til our dying breaths; then we will have solace and peace that surpasses all understanding. I've felt that peace before on several occasions, and I can't wait to feel it again, permanently and forever.

Let's keep each other in our prayers, even those we disagree with."
posted at 17:13:19 on October 5, 2013 by dog
Schizophrenia    
"It is just so sad and downright scary when someone's pride and close-mindedness can damage those that are already at a disadvantage.
I am a therapist and I have worked with dozens of people suffering from Schizophrenia. It saddens and angers me to hear that there are still people of the opinion that this disease is caused by possession or "unclean spirits". There is blame and guilt in this assumption. I know from personal experience from working closely with this illness that it does NOT have anything to do with choice. Nobody chooses to have this illness or allows it to possess them. That is antiquated garbage and perpetuates the symptoms of the illness by postponing real treatment. It perpetuates the symptoms of the illness by adding to the stress of the one diagnosed. I have witnessed miracles in treating people with Schizophrenia but I have also witnessed heart-breaking cases where there is little or no recovery. These heart-breaking cases correlate with families that deny the existence of the illness or refuse to accept or learn about the illness.
So Sad."
posted at 17:41:32 on October 5, 2013 by Anonymous
YES    
"it was a great talk from Elder Holland,
yes it is sad to think that some of our member still believe in possession and unclean spirit.

As Elder Holland mentioned it is important to get a blessing of the priesthood in addition of professional help like any other challenge including addiction for example."
posted at 09:55:21 on October 6, 2013 by mike81
"medical help"?    
"You mean, pshrinks??, BIG pharm??? Nooooooo!"
posted at 10:11:55 on October 6, 2013 by they_speak
Anon the Comformist Therapist    
"It is heart breaking Anon that you know nothing about your own abominable industry that has infiltrated Governments and innocent people / families and is now making brain dead societal slaves and drug addicts out of them.

Welcome to the hotel California mate! You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave. How about we put you into a mental institution and overdose you and see if you won't agree with whatever your so called Doctors tell you. The Doctors and staff say the Meds work don't they? And if the patience doesn't agree they will be kept in hospital and will have to also be threatened with intramuscular injections that hurt, as well as being over dosed with oral medication.

These people tell you what you want to hear because they are scared to death of the system that you uphold. My daughter was so badly overdosed by lazy Psychiatry. Where's the counselling and CBT, almost non-existent? Psychiatry = unmeasurable science = pseudo science = quackery

To start with I had almost completed a psychology degree at university when my daughter was diagnosed with so called Schizophrenia. I am not that ignorant to not have investigated both sides Pharmacutical / Psychiatry argument.

Before I learned in the psychology text book that antipsychotics lock into the neurotransmitters that release our God given flow of dopamine and prohibit its flow and this was all based on a theory that suffers produce excess dopamine. I too thought that the meds were ok. It was the psychology text book that prompted my further investigation into the dopamine THEORY. I question whether you have done un-bias research and I fear that you have been indoctrinated by big Pharma.

And as far as believing that these people are / do get possessed I have witnessed it and I have also spoke to many suffering from schizophrenia and they themselves have told me. My own daughter has told me at least a hundred times. When they are not scared to death of you they will disclose their real feelings, what they see, what they hear and what their true fears are.

If you really cared about them and listen to them I mean really listen with the spirit of discernment you would know that what they are saying is true.

In addition to this 56% of the healings Jesus performed when he was on the earth insisted of casting out unclean and evil spirits? The first miracle of this dispensation was when Joseph Smith cast out an unclean spirit from Newel K Nite?

Well here are some articles that you probably don't want to read and YouTube videos that you don't want to see? That support my argument in regards to psychiatry being a pseudo science and if you actually believe in God and read the scriptures, you will know that people get possessed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-psychiatry

Psychiatrists under fire - www.thegardian.com

Network Against Coercive Psychiatry - www.stopstrinks.org/readingroom/nacp/nacp.html

How to escape from a mental institution - speakoutagainstpsychiatry.org/how_to_escape_from_a_psychiatric_hospital

Dr Mosher Against Psychiatry - www.oikos.org/mosher.html

YouTube

What's wrong with psychiatry CCHRint

Psychiatrist Colin Ross - The CIA Doctors and Military Mind Control

CCHR co-founder Dr Thomas Szasz - Professor of Psychiatry

The DMS: Psychiatry's deadliest scam

The Marketing of Madness

Making a Killing: The untold story of psychotropics

Psychiatry the Shadow Government - Ron Paul

Psychiatric Drug - side effects - www.cchr.org/quick-facts/psychiatric-drugs-effects"
posted at 23:19:41 on October 6, 2013 by Aussie
You see what you want to see    
"And of course you are seeing psyc industry because you had a bad experience. Although
We must always remain prayerful, don't discount the fact that many have been helped by the same industry you disdain. I and some of my family are alive and functioning today because of a good psychologist, and in some cases that included medication. Open your mind, it's not all about you."
posted at 23:59:16 on October 6, 2013 by Anonymous
Really funny    
"Ausie--I am laughing because it looks like we read the same sorts of things. I wouldn't have thought. I bet there are others here that read this sort of stuff.

I've seen mainstream medical drugs really help people with mental illness. But these drugs really caused me a lot of harm. And, going to a therapist....I have been told by multiple ones to just "Stop It". Yes, this happens...like in that video BeClean posted. So, I do curse the entire medical industry, and mental health industry, at times. But I agree with the above anon on remaining prayerful. Probably it would be good for even me to go to a doctor. I have a medical condition that is causing a lot of problems for me (not psych problem), but have been too scared to go to the doctor. Maybe praying before choosing a doctor would help. Maybe letting God into this process is the key.

What about naturopathy methods, though? Like diet and exercise? Thoughts? Plus, there are many spices like turmeric, paprika, ginger, cinnamon, and more that have wonderful healing qualities.

I do still believe, though, that for some people it is God's will for them to have an unclean spirit cast out. But I do not believe it is God's will for all people. Too much to learn from the journey."
posted at 04:21:12 on October 7, 2013 by Anonymous
Wise approach Anonymous'    
"I don't think there is any need to apostatize from any school of thought base on incomplete understanding.

"I have trouble understanding why people drift away from the Church....There are all kinds of contradictions that I don’t understand, but I find the same kind of contradictions in science, and I haven’t decided to apostatize from science." -Dr. Eyring

There are contradiction and pit falls everywhere. Both in science and religion. But that doesn't mean we have to become unscientific, or irreligious.

In other news since we're kind of on the topic of the brain and science. I just came across this ( http://www.vice.com/read/the-worlds-first-commercially-available-cyborg-is-a-cockroach?utm_source=vicefbus ) this morning. Fascinating! What I also find interesting is that the cockroach eventually doesn't respond to the stimuli. I wonder what we'll discover about the brains ability to adapt and change base on foreign stimuli. I also wonder what kind of implications this could have on our understanding of the psycho active drugs and electro therapy we currently use to manipulate the brains activity? Ah!, endless coolness out there just waiting to be discovered."
posted at 10:36:58 on October 7, 2013 by they_speak
Yes...    
"and don't forget Obama is the antichrist"
posted at 10:40:37 on October 7, 2013 by Anonymous
If by Obama    
"...you mean Glen Beck."
posted at 10:42:08 on October 7, 2013 by they_speak
Obama...Glen Beck    
"Same thing :)"
posted at 11:44:08 on October 7, 2013 by Anonymous
Hahaha!    
"True dat"
posted at 11:58:17 on October 7, 2013 by they_speak
Obama the Anti Christ    
"I had someone in Church send out an email about Obama that was patently untrue. I emailed him back with references from Snopes.com. Then he emailed me back. Thanked me for correcting him but added something about Obama is still the Anti Christ that will bring about the Second Coming.

I thought, "Really? You are on the High Council?""
posted at 14:14:43 on October 7, 2013 by matt78
About Snopes    
"I've seen things there that I personally know to be untrue. It's really not a good reference of what is true and what is false.

But, yeah, people do get pretty passionate about their political opinions."
posted at 14:21:42 on October 7, 2013 by Anonymous
Matt    
"Geez, Brother. That would be funny if it wasn't so freakin' scary! Unbelievable ignorance in our culture.
I need a shower."
posted at 14:24:41 on October 7, 2013 by Anonymous
What????    
"If it's on the internet it has to be true. That's what I heard, anyway.
Has anyone heard about this reptilian elite thing? I am pretty sure that is true, too."
posted at 14:27:48 on October 7, 2013 by Anonymous
Aussie,    
"I'm sorry you had such a horrid experience with psychiatry. But that does not excuse you from being open-minded. I agreed that there are some awful psychiatrists out there. I've worked with a bunch of them.
People that suffer from Schizophrenia have an over-active production of dopamine. That is not a theory, my dear. That is a proven fact which led to the development of anti psychotic medications that save lives. Yes, they save lives! That is not a theory either. I've seen it with my own eyes. Medication is an individualized application of science and not one-size-fits-all. To judge an entire field by an isolated case or by something you read on the internet is just wrong. I am glad to hear that you do your homework and you know more than most on the topic. I just wish you wouldn't make the generalities that you make because I know that they are as untrue as thinking there is no such thing as possession by unclean spirits.
I know the treatment process is full of dips and valleys of being prescribed meds that make things worse for a time or induce side-effects worse than the symptoms of the disease itself.
I am not lying to you. I have watched people on the verge of suicide or homicide made nearly whole by the right medication literally hundreds of times. Medications help far more than they hurt.
My heart does go out to you because I know the pain and suffering endured by the loved ones of people diagnosed with Schizophrenia. Parents, husbands, wives, and children who stay with these troubled souls through thick and thin and support them through life are my heroes.
Maybe we just agree that mental illness is difficult and we need all the help God gives us?"
posted at 14:49:43 on October 7, 2013 by Anonymous
Anon    
"Can you please show me where to find the proof I mean the measurable proof that those suffering from Schizophrenia have increased amounts of dopamine in their brains. This test was never done on my daughter or any of the people I know that suffer from Schizophrenia.

Could you please post me the link to the reports that have accurately measured this dopamine over-activity and the chemical imbalances that psychiatry constantly talk about. Because as far as I have researched and also listened to many psychiatrists and clinical psychologists they say that there is no such thing as a measurable chemical imbalance test??

There are literally hundreds of psychiatrists that have come out against their own profession and state that the pharmaceutical industry is now leading psychiatry. That is why the DSM V has gone from 7 disorders in the 60's to 374 disorders now. It is a multi -billion dollar industry that has also infiltrated the government.

If you watch the video "Making a Killing" most of these people are psychiatrists, doctors, nutritionists, orthomolecular scientists and drug sales representatives. They interview many psychiatrists and they all say that there is not a measurable science in regards to chemical imbalances. So if you have the proof I would love to see it and send it to all these professionals for analysis.

For the other Anon further up who constantly says every- things all about me, well that is so ignorant because so many people have suffered and died at the hands of these your God's - Psychiatrists. You should stop being so ignorant and hating on me and watch the ' The Marketing of Madness" These are other families that have suffered immensely due to drugging and psychiatric overdosing.

D&C 42:43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not FAITH to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with HERBS and mild food, and that not be by the HAND of an ENEMY.

I Thank You Anon above for your last paragraph I think that is the only kind words I have ever received on this blog."
posted at 17:55:32 on October 7, 2013 by Aussie
Psycho Doctors Help people sometimes    
"I think they have helped some people, including President Holland. You shouldn't discount an entire industry based upon your own experience. You can't speak for the collective. Some people don't believe in Medical Doctors, but Medical Doctors have saved lives. My life was sparred when I went on Prozac. I was on it for quite a few years and it was a great drug for me. It pulled me from a deep suicidal depression when nothing natural worked. I don't like to take medicine, so this was a hard decision to make, but my life was on the line, so I did it. It was able to un muddy the waters and clear the clouds. After 6 years, I decided to go off of it. I had to taper off because it does have like a 20 day half life and that's what is recommended. I never had any side effects, other than calm reasoning. I decided to go off because I don't like taking drugs and did not want to be on them forever. They got me through a tough time and I believe I am alive because of those medicines. I don't love the Psycho industry and believe there are many faults with it, but tossing out the baby with the bathwater is not something we should do. You are emotional and it's understandable, I can't imagine the nightmare you are living through, but I think you need to learn to open your mind a bit. You seem to be very black and white and there are areas of gray. Not all mental illness is cause by evil spirits. If so, your daughter would be healed. Watch Elder Holland's talk from Saturday conference. I'm not a hater. I do see that you have a very myopic view on just about everything you post about. You are always asking others to see your point of view. Why not try looking at some of the people on heres point of view. You don't know everything about everything, and you just might learn something and even help your daughter in the mix. I wish you Godspeed in helping your daughter."
posted at 19:11:54 on October 7, 2013 by Anonymous
I tried the medical model    
"I tried the medical model for over two years and this made my daughter so sad and cry all the time. She would always say that she is a prisoner to the mental health act. This was especially the case when she got neuroleptic shock from intramuscular injections and was overdosed. All that time she was on heavy duty medication she still saw and heard evil spirits?? This is very similar for the vast majority of all the suffers I have spoken with??

About two weeks ago Kick it and two other worthy priesthood holders were able to cast out the evil spirits in her. Straight after the casting out and blessing she fell asleep in the arm chair. When she woke up about 20 minutes later she told me that all the evil spirits were gone. I could see that her countenance had changed and felt a peace in the home.

I wanted to post about this because she has improved at least 50% but Kick it said that I should not post about it. All I am left with now is to help her with the conditioning that these evil spirits subjected her too and helping her clean up her other brain the digestive track.

She no longer talks to these evil spirits or laughs at them the house has a peace to it that I haven't felt in a long time. These evil spirits bring confusion and contention. I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I do believe that it was my open mindedness and not my close mindedness that helped me because I was not going to leave any stone un- turned. I cried out to God for revelation and answers everyday. I feel that the vast majority of people do not open their minds and hearts to other answers. To the TRUTH that lies before them.

I am so grateful for a loving Father in Heaven and for his treasures of knowledge and even hidden treasures that are there for all of us to un-earth if we have FAITH. I am not spouting my / mans philosophy I am quoting GODS TRUTH"
posted at 21:00:59 on October 7, 2013 by Aussie
I am happy    
"To hear about your daughter and hope she continues to allow you to help her improve. I do believe in the evil power that dark spirits can cause. We have seen something amazing happen with one of our sons when inviting evil spirits to leave in His sacred name.

I agree and am also a mother who has left no stones un turned. My results are taking longer, but as moms, we would be less than grateful to our God if we did not use all we have to help heal our families. I have gone to some crazy methods when all else was failing, so I wanted you to know that I completely understand your passion. That is what a good mom does.

At the end of the day, we will face the Lord and report what he already knows, and that is that we have done our best and left the rest to him. Praise God for your daughters experience and I will include her in my prayers tonight. It always works out and I hope you will have a time of joyful rest as your daughter recovers. This stuff is hell, and only those who live through these awful experiences understand that we will do whatever it takes to help our families back to the Lord.

Sweet Dreams Aussie"
posted at 02:12:06 on October 8, 2013 by angelmom
Thank God for Kick It and Aussie    
"without them, we wouldn't know about evil spirits everywhere, because the apostles sure aren't talking about it. maybe that's because they are sided with the ENEMY! I want to join the church of Kick It and Aussie, because they are teaching the bible truth, not this hokey medical garbage being preached at conference by Elder Holland. where do I send my tithing donations?

Fully 56% Kick It? wow!"
posted at 06:49:44 on October 8, 2013 by Anonymous
further knowledge    
"You know that last Anon has a point. I think there was a seventy this last conference who said we are to teach what the apostles are teaching. Truthfully, I believe there are some things they aren't teaching that may be true, but perhaps those things are for individual seekers to learn for themselves, and they aren't meant to be shared with everyone. Maybe, if we know something the apostles are keeping to themselves, perhaps we should keep it to ourselves as well."
posted at 07:06:24 on October 8, 2013 by beclean
56%    
"I bet the number of apostles on the side of Big Pharm is fully 56%, too. It makes sense, and it would explain everything."
posted at 07:10:23 on October 8, 2013 by Anonymous
Jesus Christ    
"He is the Son of God. The Savior of mankind. The one who makes weak things strong. The one to whom we must turn to overcome our collective challenges.

Once again, we've gone through an entire contentious argument about unclean spirits without Kick It or Aussie ever once mentioning his name, but they sure have shared a lot of spooky stories sharing the awesome power of devils.

I'm starting to wonder if what someone else said isn't true: perhaps these two are devil worshippers."
posted at 07:50:46 on October 8, 2013 by Anonymous
Snopes and the Truth (or not)    
"You are right. I still have to vet Snopes is well and I usually look at their primary sources. In this instance I could tell the original email was false just by looking at it without going to Snopes. I just wanted a quick and dirty third party reference without telling this brother that he was an idiot. I know none of us are perfect, but it makes me wonder how there are some people in our Church who are active and go to the temple and are still blinded by their political bias."
posted at 10:08:43 on October 8, 2013 by matt78
Kick It    
"I think your experience in not a common one. Some of the folks on here have said that when a priesthood holder indulges in porn they invite evil spirits into the home. Lots of folks have cast out demons and felt some relief. Was your daughter always schizophrenic? what brought that on? most kids eat bad and some take drugs and don't have her result. I hate the pharma industry. I think it is scary because there are too many pills given to too many people. Your wife said this went on for 2 years so why did you wait so long to cast out evil spirits? I believe they exist, but I'm an old guy and don't know anyone with schizophrenia and have never known of anyone having satan like sounds in their home or knowing bishops being grabbed by the neck and thrown against the wall. Maybe the town you live in is on top of an ancient Indian burial ground.Seriously, I have heard of some cities with weird happenings going on only to find they were atop a burial ground. For whatever reason this is one of your crosses to bear. Thanks for sharing your experience."
posted at 10:16:27 on October 8, 2013 by Anonymous
I read this this morning    
"From the book Living Buddha Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh (a Vietnamese peace activist and Buddhist bad ass).

"People kill and are killed because they cling too tightly to their own beliefs and ideologies. When we believe that ours is the only faith that contains the truth, violence and suffering will surely be the result. The second precept of the Order of Interbeing, founded within the Zen Buddhist tradition during the war in Vietnam, is about letting go of views: 'Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice non attachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints.' To me, this is the most essential practice of peace."

Although I haven't read Aussie's comments I think I can say with a measure of confidence that I feel most if not everyone on this site are following after the precepts recommended above accept Aussie and Kickit. We are open to their view points. We understand our views are not changeless perfection that everyone else should immediately adhere to. They, on the other, are not open to any view point except their own. Their interpretation of life and the scriptures trump all else. So, why are we still waisting time reading their bull shit? And, I have a question for them the answer of which I personally won't bother to read, why are you here? You're clearly not here for your own help and you're not helping any of us."
posted at 12:39:44 on October 8, 2013 by they_speak
When I am disturbed    
"I am the problem. At least, that's what I learned in the 12 step program. Maybe the Kick Its are helpful to some.

That being said, I did put Mr. Kick It (sorry, Kick It, but I did this) on my step 4 inventory under the resentment category because I didn't know how to deal with some behaviors.

Sometimes, now, I even feel the Kick Its have some interesting viewpoints.

Maybe it is out of line for me to say this. If so, I apologise."
posted at 14:20:39 on October 8, 2013 by Anonymous
Aussie,    
"Thank you, for your thoughtful reply. I can feel the love you have for your daughter. I sincerely wish your daughter to be made whole. It sounds like you guys are experienced a miracle and I believe it from what you shared. It is my genuine hope that it leads to better health and some serenity in your home.
You see? I am more open-minded than you give me credit for. :)"
posted at 14:49:07 on October 8, 2013 by Anonymous
i dont feel its out of line at all    
"To each his own. I said the same thing to Mint. When I'm disturbed I'm the problem. I guess that's how Im personally dealing with the distubance within myself. Eliminated the stimuli that seems to cause it. Of course I could change my perception of the stimuli or myself in relation to it...but I don't wanna.

It seems others are disturbed too. I'm saying why bother? Even now though still addressing the nuisance indirectly its SO much better than reading, engaging and trying to reason with unreason.

...lol, I suppose they could be a scourge unto us, to stir us up in the ways of remembrance. Remembrance of patience. And long suffering. Well I'll be damned maybe you guys are helping after all!"
posted at 19:38:26 on October 8, 2013 by they_speak
Yep    
"I am the anon who wrote the disturbed comment. I have also learned patience from this. Woo hoo :-)"
posted at 20:50:31 on October 8, 2013 by Anonymous


Add a Comment:


***Anonymous User***     (login above to post UN-anonymously)








help
join
"[The Savior] is saying to us, "Trust me, learn of me, do what I do. Then, when you walk where I am going," He says, "we can talk about where you are going, and the problems you face and the troubles you have. If you will follow me, I will lead you out of darkness," He promises. "I will give you answers to your prayers. I will give you rest to your souls.""

— Jeffrey R. Holland

General Conference, April 2006