CS Lewis weighs in on the hierarchy
By beclean
8/11/2013 4:20:24 AM
C. S. Lewis

"If anyone thinks that Christians regard unchastity (sexual sin) as the supreme vice, he is quite wrong. The sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins. All the worst pleasures are purely spiritual: the pleasure of putting other people in the wrong, of bossing and patronising and spoiling sport, and back-biting, the pleasures of power, of hatred. For there are two things inside me, competing with the human self which I must try to become. They are the Animal self, and the Diabolical self. The Diabolical self is the worse of the two. That is why a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute. But, of course, it is better to be neither."

~ Mere Christianity

And until recently, I thought I was the worst person on the earth for my sexual sins. Now I know they hurt my progress and confidence, but it's far worse for me to be uncaring and focused on myself. Breaking the law of chastity is nothing compared to breaking to second Great Commandment. THAT'S the one I should be focused on and worried about!


I'm sorry... let me clarify    
"I'm simply sharing the opinion and thoughts of CS Lewis as he interprets the scriptures, followed by my own thoughts about how I interpret them. That's all any of us on this site can do, right? We share thoughts and scriptures and then interpret them through our own flaws and biases. Anytime we say anything, that's what we're doing.

I didn't always feel this way, but I now perrsonally believe the scriptures support Mr. Lewis' comments.

When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was (the questioners were going for a hierarchy of sin), he didn't say, "Don't commit adultery, lust after women, or anything like it." He said love God and love others.

Later, the Lord said, "By this everyone will know you are my followers: if you love each other." He didn't say, "If you keep the law of chastity..."

Even Alma 39 is a little ambiguous. If you read the verses, you'll see Corianton was guilty of SEVERAL crimes and sins, and it's not completely clear if one in particular or all of them together made his dad so upset. And he repented and got back on track, something that hateful people like Laman, Lemuel, and Cain never do.

Who really pleases God? The one who stays perfectly faithful to his wife and pridefully thinks he is better than others and others should not be blessed and served and rewarded because of it, or the one who occasionally succumbs to the flesh but humbly acknowledges his need for God and others, and he loves and serves them?

Even President Benson said the sin to beware of in the last days is pride (he didn't say porn). The porn user is often VERY humble and teachable, desiring with all his heart to serve God and be free, but unable to do it. But the proud, the hateful, never can be taught the way to heaven or accept the work others have done on his behalf.

Jesus told an interesting story once about a sinful tax collector and a prideful Pharisee. Which one would make it to heaven first? The humble sinner!

No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. I can't judge others. The Lord rewards us according to the desires of our hearts, and he knows when the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. He is merciful and loving. I think those qualities are even more important than purity.

My point is we should not think we are the worst creatures on the earth when we struggle with temptations of the flesh. That's a pretty normal struggle, and God understands we are just learning to control these bodies.

I think we should focus more on loving and serving others and less on worrying about our daily temptations of the flesh. We should try more to be kind, humble, and helpful, even if it means we are not always pure and perfect. I think God will make us pure and perfect as we seek to love like he loves.

That's my opinion. I'm certainly not perfect, and I'm guilty of so many sins. But I think the most important thing for me to work on is love. If I spend my whole life trying to get that right, I think the Lord will perfect me and be merciful to me. If I love with mercy, serve, don't judge, and forgive others, I think his promise is that he'll do the same for me."
posted at 16:17:56 on August 11, 2013 by beclean
Kick it...    
"The word of a writer? It's CS freakin' Lewis, man. Have you ever read the man's work? Maybe that's the problem. His work IS scripture. Ask any prophet."
posted at 21:24:11 on August 11, 2013 by Anonymous
"I loved this. Christ is not about splitting hairs, he is about forgiveness and love."
posted at 23:10:08 on August 11, 2013 by Anonymous
Thanks, Kick it    
"I appreciate that you shared your interpretation of a couple scripture verses. I hope that we can agree to disagree, because it's obvious every person must come to their own conclusions about what the scriptures say on this one—whether it's more important to love others or to be sexually pure. Thank goodness we don't have to choose between those two options. As Lewis said, we should do both.

I have never noticed it before this week, but Alma 39:5 IS very ambiguous. I used to think it had the words "sexual sin" in it, too, but you showed us that those words must be added. After reading it in the context of verses 2-13, I think it's quite possible the "these things" Alma was talking about included disobeying his father, leaving the ministry, leading the Zoramites astray, boasting in thy strength and wisdom [i.e., debilitating pride], AND/OR sexual sin. You gotta remember that only 3 chapters earlier, Alma himself claimed to have "murdered many of [God's] children, or rather led them away into destruction." (Alma 36:14) I think it's interesting to note which sin he compares to murder in this verse and then wonder whether it's the same one or a different one that he compares to murder 3 chapters later.

IF the murderous, wicked sin that Alma and Corianton were guilty of is NOT unchastity, it seems instead to be the same one the woeful scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites we're guilty of: Pharisaical hypocrisy—preaching you are holy and pure and better than others when you are not, when you are guilty of sin yourself, with a beam in your eye and dead bones in your whited sepulchre. I hope I don't do the same for my children.

Kick It, I'm not sure where you get the idea that either I or CS Lewis has minimized sexual sin. Read everything I wrote again, carefully. It's ironic that right after I wrote it, my wife said, "It's obvious you aren't minimizing the sin..." And then you say the opposite. Since I know in my heart I'm not one to minimize my wrongs—like most other addicts, I always blow them way out of proportion and guilt myself about them forever—you'll forgive me if I believe my wife this time. I'm VERY open with my wife, my parents, my siblings, and even my kids about my sinful behavior and addiction. I can admit I'm a porn addict, though I haven't looked in a long time. Am I minimizing or hiding, as you have accused me of? I appreciate your concern, Brother, since hiding and minimization IS harmful to progress. But I don't think I'm doing that.

I'm not minimizing anything except debilitating, destructive, devilish shame... It must go away if we are to overcome all things. We must realize we are children of a loving God with infinite worth. He sent his only perfect Son to die for US!! "For God so loved the world...!" That is a message of LOVE! Satan's is a message of guilt and shame. And I'm fighting it with love and forgiveness. That's what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about.

Some people [Mormons and fundamentalist Christians, mostly] choose to make their children, grandchildren, and others feel terrible and shameful for the bad things they do. And they wonder why their kids make even more bad choices and leave the Church and the family. I hope I don't do that. I hope my kids feel I love them no matter what they do... because I do. If I have a prodigal, I will want him to return, and just like God, I will run to embrace him when he is still far away, and I see him coming home. If I have a lost sheep or a precious lost piece of silver, I will not rest until it is found, and I will rejoice when it is. (By the way, ALL sheep and coins get lost and ALL children are prodigals in these analogies, and if I am not completely loving and forgiving, I will lose ALL my children.)

If anyone can't see the obvious message of love and forgiveness in the scriptures because they are focused on trying to make themselves pure, I feel sorry for that person.

I have always loved Nephi's "we talk of Christ" verse. He doesn't say we talk and preach and write and prophecy of Christ so that our children will avoid sin and be pure and perfect. He says we talk of Christ so our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. In other words, our kids are going to sin, and thanks to Jesus, it's not the end of the world. We must stop telling them to come home from their mission in honor or come home in a box. We must stop telling them if they follow the powerful teenage sexual passions in a moment of weakness that God will not listen to their prayers because they will be guilty of near murder. Those statements are destructive, wicked, ungodly, uncharitable, and patently false. Jesus is there for us with love even/especially when we sin — that's the entire reason he came to earth and it's the entire reason we talk of Christ. It's why he spent all his time with publicans and sinners.

The truth about these sexual sins is not that they are like murder. The truth our children must know is that these sins destroy your life with a lack of confidence and self worth, they create more powerful urges and potential problems, they cause you to lie and hide, they cause the Spirit to withdraw, they spoil your ability to love your spouse and for your spouse to love you, they leave you susceptible to evil influences, they result in unwanted pregnancies and terrible diseases, and they leave you feeling completely unworthy to serve others or talk to God, which is not true, but it's how you feel. How's that for minimization? These sins that happen in a moment of weakness ARE terrible, because their potential consequences are terrible, but they fall FAR, FAR short of murder. And I would say the consequences aren't even as severe as systemic hate or pride (enmity). God doesn't condemn women (and men) taken in adultery who want to change, but he curses fig trees that are barren of fruit—they look like a fruit-filled tree, but on closer inspection, you find they are not.

That's what I think CS Lewis was saying. It's more important to love and forgive. I agree with him.

And Kick It, one last thought, I love you. I really appreciate your view and your experience. Thank you for sharing. Please just remember that you are not the only one on this site with a little sobriety, and some people have been sober for much longer than you. Other opinions and viewpoints are valid, too, and they might help someone, if you can avoid tearing them down first. We're all, hopefully, on the same team."
posted at 11:41:45 on August 12, 2013 by beclean
Ezekiel 16:48-50    
"Another scripture to add to the many, many others I've quoted in this conversation to support CS Lewis would be Ezekiel 16:48-50. I LOVE Ezekiel 16. It is one of my favorite chapters in all scripture (but you've probably never heard it in church), the one where God calls us all backwards prostitutes, not because we are guilty of sexual sin, but because we do something worse: we worship (and sleep with) other Gods and then give THEM our time, talents, and money after all God has done for us. We violate the first commandment of the Ten and the first Great Commandment. Still, God is faithful to us and he will forgive us even for this horrific slap in the face, if we return to him.

But I want to focus just on verses 48-50, where the prophet tells us this sin of idol worship (and I think the worst idol is ourselves) is worse than the sins of Sodom. Then, he lists the reasons Sodom was destroyed. If you think Sodom was destroyed for sexual deviations, then right there you must agree there are sins worse than illicit sex, not including those explicitly listed in Alma 39:5 (idol worship being one worse sin). However, you might be surprised to know that Sodom was destroyed for sins other than its obvious improper sex. It was destroyed for PRIDE, selfish wealth, idleness, lack of attention to others (including the poor and needy), HAUGHTINESS, AND other (unspecified) abominations.

Sexual sin is bad and wrong, as Lewis says. But it is not the worst vice in Christianity. Those who love and serve only themselves and can't forgive or keep from judging their brother are probably father away from the God of love. Let's try our best to be filled with the love of Christ. Charity never faileth. Without charity, you are nothing—even if you have purity and virtue."
posted at 14:09:30 on August 12, 2013 by beclean
Put the bull's-eye right on that Brazen Serpent Beclean. Well played sir.    
"Though I hope this doesn't detract from the Sprit of Becleans post this came to mind from What is Zion? A Distant View by Hugh Nibley (I italicized the focal points of particular relevance):

There is a precedent for the bit of faking—a most distinguished one. Satan, being neither stupid nor inexperienced, knows the value of a pleasing appearance—there are times when it pays to appear even as an angel of light. He goes farther than that, however, to assure that success of his masquerade (given out since the days of Adam) as a picturesquely repulsive figure—a four-star horror with claws, horns, or other obvious trimmings. With that idea firmly established, he can operate with devastating effectiveness as a very proper gentleman, a handsome and persuasive salesman. He "decoys" our minds (a favorite word with Brigham Young) with false words and appearances. A favorite trick is to put the whole blame on sex. Sex can be a pernicious appetite, but it runs a poor second to the other. For example: We are wont to think of Sodom as the original sexpot, but according to all accounts "this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom": that great wealth made her people cruel and self-righteous.98 The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism. Longhairs, beards, necklaces, LSD and rock, Big Sur and Woodstock come and go, but Babylon is always there: rich, respectable, immovable, with its granite walls and steel vaults, its bronze gates, its onyx trimmings and marble floors (all borrowed from ancient temples, for these are our modern temples), and its bullet-proof glass—the awesome symbols of total security. Keeping her orgies decently private, she presents a front of unalterable propriety to all. As the early Christian writers observed, Babylon always wins: in every showdown throughout history, Satan has remained in possession of the field, and he still holds it. Its security and respectability exert a strong appeal: "When I see this people grow and spread and prosper," said Brigham Young, "I feel there is more danger than when they are in poverty. Being driven from city to city . . . is nothing compared to the danger of becoming rich and being hailed by outsiders as a first-class community."99

Brigham Young has this to say on the Puritan ethic, which shifts the burden of guilt from wealth to sex:

When the books are opened, out of which the human family are to be judged, how disappointed the professedly sanctified, long-faced hypocrites and smoothtoned pharisees will be, when the publicans and harlots enter into the kingdom of heaven before them; people that appeared to be full of evil, but the Lord says they never designed to do wrong; the Devil had power over them, and they suffered in their mortal state a thousand times more than you poor, miserable, canting, cheating, snivelling, hypocritical pharisees; you were dressed in purple and fine linen, and bound burdens upon your weaker brethren that you would not so much as help to lift with your little fingers. Did you ever go without food, suffer with tooth-ache, sore eyes, rheumatism, or the chills and fever? You have fared sumptuously all your days and you condemned to an everlasting hell these poor harlots and publicans who never designed an evil. Are you not guilty of committing an evil with that poor harlot? Yes, and you will be damned while she will be saved.100
posted at 20:30:00 on August 12, 2013 by They_Speak
"Won't everyone reply to the Lords hypothetical query "Well, almost..."? I don't know. That just seems like the most retarded scenario I've ever heard. No offense. Based on my, perfect, understanding of holy writ I think the drama will unfold something more like "So!, did I make it???" "Ha!, not even close Bub...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.""
posted at 21:15:22 on August 12, 2013 by they_speak
Kick it...    
"I don't think you're hard-nosed. I just think you believe your motive is to help people without realizing what your real motive actually is; pride. You should read what President Benson wrote about Pride. Or better yet, you can read it in the original form, written by C.S. Lewis."
posted at 22:38:45 on August 12, 2013 by Anonymous
They speak...    
"Ha! Exactly!!! Great post on Nibley"
posted at 22:40:30 on August 12, 2013 by Anonymous
The Final Judgement    
"Speak, that's EXACTLY how I believe the final judgement will go. If I am judged, I WILL fail. I mean, if I rely on myself... Good luck!!! He is the ONLY one who passes judgement. I don't even come close, and I NEVER will. But he has done it for me. So, I do my very best to love and serve him and his sheep."
posted at 23:06:49 on August 12, 2013 by beclean
ps awesome Nibley stuff!    
posted at 23:07:41 on August 12, 2013 by beclean
and please    
"This post was never meant to be an attack on anyone."
posted at 23:14:56 on August 12, 2013 by beclean
When we identify with the publican    
"we become like the Pharisee. When the Pharisee went to pray, he said, "Oh Lord, I am thankful that thou has not made me like the Publicans..." But when the Publican went to pray, he knelt and smote himself on the chest and said, "Forgive me Lord, for I am a sinner...".

It's true that Jesus gave this parable. But aren't we as guilty as the Pharisee when we say, "Oh Lord, I am thankful that thou hast not made me like the Pharisees."????

I think self awareness and comparisons to others are very serious sins. It's a very dangerous form of pride, and we stand on very thin soil with boiling lava beneath it when we do this. If we are living the way we should, we don't compare ourselves to anyone, Publican or Pharisee, harlot or King. We just do the best we can and push forward and ask the Lord's forgiveness."
posted at 14:11:17 on August 13, 2013 by dog
Great point, Dog!    
"Thanks for sharing that."
posted at 14:51:17 on August 13, 2013 by beclean
I don't know    
"...I'd have to re-read the whole thread but i'm not sure anyone is saying they aren't like the Pharisees. Again I'm to lazy to double check but from memory I believe Beclean was making a point of importance. Beginning with the first great commandments. Lets not forget to love. Yes, we suck, we get it. But we can still be loving. Or try to be. And that's the most important thing. The Pharisees, Sodom, Nephite's etc simply epitomize what we can become when we loose sight of that. It's not to say we are not like them. In fact i'd say this point of emphasis is precisely because we ARE like them. If we are not careful we easily follow their same course. Easily."
posted at 15:26:59 on August 13, 2013 by they_speak
"I think if we truly knew what love was and we were as kind and caring as we should be and had the understanding of the ultimate sacredness of pro-creation; would anyone even need to be on this addiction blog at all??

So I commend you all for your wanting to love, care for, be kind to others and for your understanding or trying to understand what love is. This is a great and noble cause and I am sure there are many famous poets, authors and philosophers who have tried to contribute to our understanding of love. However I think the scriptures sums love up quite adequately in 1 Cor 13:4-8 which states: Charity suffereth long, and is kind; Charity envieth not, charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave its self unseemingly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provocked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in truth, beareth all things, hopeth all things, Believeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth.

What I think what maybe happening is that some people maybe putting the cart before the horse because in my experience when someone is in the thick of addiction they are not able to commit to the sacrifice needed to bestow or express true love to another. Not that they don't have the desire to do so. They are just not capable of doing so especially when they are suffering from compulsions. And as I have testified before these compulsions come from being possessed by an unclean spirit.

In order to be able to have true love the unclean spirit needs to be cast out. One cannot serve God and Mammom at the same time.

I wish you all well and my prayers and thoughts are with you in your journey towards TRUE LOVE!

May God Bless You!"
posted at 01:25:49 on August 15, 2013 by Anonymous
I could agree with that...    
"Just as long as you aren't suggesting that we must be pure, perfect, or free from sin, temptation, compulsion, perversion, or transgression of any kind before we can love others or before we can worship God or run to him for help and answers to prayer.

We CAN humbly get help from God when we are plagued with sin.

We CAN love and serve others when we are selfishly sinning.

We SHOULD focus on these more and less on trying to make ourselves worthy to pray or worthy to serve.

So, I certainly don't want to be defensive. I agree with all you said about the importance of Love. I just want it to be clear that we don't need to be "worthy" to pray or to love. The worst of us can do those things."
posted at 01:53:05 on August 15, 2013 by beclean
Kick it    
"I'm not feelin it!

I beg to differ. Your interpretation of the scriptures is interesting at best.

My capacity to love is greater when I am sober, but I can and do love even when I am not. Was the woman taken in adultery incapable of love?

Your blanketed statements serve no one but those who are looking for guilt, shame, and self hatred. Don't you think we have enough already? The old testament was replaced with the higher law, remember?

Maybe you need to go back and have the other evil spirit cast out as well. Maybe your lust evil spirit has gone onto greener pastures, but his evil spirit baby brother, the one named "PRIDE" might be lagging behind a bit.

Beclean thanks for being so loving that you can even be nice to this yah hoo. He is a child of God, albeit a very prideful one.

Kick it, really give it a rest and admit when you are wrong."
posted at 02:12:30 on August 15, 2013 by Anonymous
Anonymous above is not kick it.    
"May be his wife.

But it doesn't matter."
posted at 02:32:00 on August 15, 2013 by beclean
They Speak    
"They Speak why are you so rude to me?. Do you know how many times you have insulted me and called me prideful? I could say that you are a sheep in wolves clothing when you say those things! You constantly over analyse, pull apart, over turn, investigate, criticize, contradict and patronize just about anything and everything I have ever written on this site and I am also in other words the scum of the earth as far as your concerned. Thanks!

You even admitted that your ability to love increases when you are sober? The main point I was trying to make is if you are suffering from compulsions there is a very high probability that you are possessed with an unclean spirit and this will definitely inhibit your ability to experience and express true love.

Kick it and I have been able to help two other men recognize and have unclean spirits cast out of them and now their lives are changing hopefully forever.

May God Bless you all in your Journey not only to sobriety but full recovery!"
posted at 06:27:42 on August 15, 2013 by Anonymous
"That's the exact point everyone is making. That it's time to stop with the delusional destructive reasoning that we have to be perfect before we can be perfected in Christ. That we have to be clean before we can pray for cleansing. That we have to be righteous before we can hope for the grace to serve. Talk about the cart before the horse. Satanic lies.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6

Even our righteousness is a bloody tampon. Why cling to it? Is that not the Lords point? Cast it out! Quit relying on it! Holding on to our own merit is like holding to a, filthy rag. Why trust in ourselves and our works, the arm of flesh? Is not everyone's life on this site a testament that cursed is he who does so? Be good. Do right. Establish the law. Yes, of course. But get over yourselves and have faith in Christ! I think that's the Lords point. At least one facet of I'm sure many points he's making there.

AND I think the opposite stands to reason. Which Beclean has beautifully pontificated on. Okay, you've jacked up. You've gone astray. You've done wrong. Get over yourself! What Source do you look to?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

You wanna talk about suffering long and being kind (true love)? What causes more suffering than our own short comings? The challenge is to suffer it. And be kind. It doesn't matter how righteous I become as I've already mentioned. I'll always fall short of the glory of God. But I can suffer that. And be kind. Through Jesus."
posted at 06:59:39 on August 15, 2013 by they_speak
That Anonymous    
"...calling you prideful isn't me. I've only read the first two sentences of your post but just thought I'd let you know. I've never, not once, posted anonymous and called you prideful.

K read it

Absolutely! My love does increase. No doubt. I think I even know the post you're referring too. Good reminder. Thank you. BUT, it doesn't mean when I am in the pits I just throw my hands up and assume when I'm at my sickest, God calls in sick. And in turn that I can't serve. Or love. I think that's the entire point of Nephi's psalm. Some of the most humbling service I've ever done has been with a bright recollection of all my guilt.

p.s. just want to reiterate I have never and will never be mean to you anonymously. I prefer slapping people around with a user name behind it. I take a lot of pride in my rudeness :) JK. I don't hate you by the way Aussie. I've said it before. I do think you're a good well meaning lady. I judge that of you on the spirit behind the words. But I don't think that put's anyones claims above critique or scrutiny. Sorry if that is offensive.

p.s.again. I think I make it pretty clear that i'm a wolf in wolf's clothing most of the time ;)"
posted at 07:01:24 on August 15, 2013 by they_speak
"They Speak doesn't write anonymously, just like Kick It doesn't, and I never do. Those of us who offend people openly have no need to post anonymously. We don't care what others think.

And that eventually makes us friends, I think. They Speak and I didn't get along at first, until we both realized we call it like it is. We're honest, and we don't hide behind "Anonymous." Everyone always knows who we are. We are also tolerant of other people's view points and we don't claim to have all the answers... Just one answer that seems to work for us.

I think They Speak and I, and many others on the site, get frustrated with people who post "Anonymously," because they seem to think they can be argumentative and rude that way without letting people know it's them. It's like they want to keep living their double life. They don't want to be honest about who they are and own up to their own beliefs and thoughts.

Further more, we all bristle when people continually repost the same thing over and over without relent suggesting it is the ONLY way to overcome addiction or compulsion. We're happy that something works for some people, and it NEEDS to be shared! But nothing is the only way!! If that were true, MANY of the people who are clean would not be clean, because they all had different methods.

Jesus is the WAY."
posted at 11:49:19 on August 15, 2013 by beclean
"...I don't think the Anonymous post was that rude. Maybe the yah-hoo thing. But c'mon, calling people yah-hoo's is funny. Or at least the word yah-hoo. Especially when it's pronounced yA or y-eh-hoo. Like a grumpy old man. "Get a load a these yeh-hoos". Lol. Sorry, maybe I had to much coffee for brunch. Brunch...also a funny word.

But seriously, I just don't think it's mean or rude or impolite to disagree with someone or think what they say is stupid. Maybe i'm insensitive but thinking what someone says is idiotic and thinking that person is idiotic are two very different things to me. Like when you said "also in other words...scum...duh duh duh duh duh..." I just giggled because that's your own other words. Your own add on story to the commentary. Not my other words. Not at all. I think you're adorbs. If I could meet you I'd probably just hug the fetch out of you. I might think some things that exit your mouth are howl at the moon crazy but, I like crazy. I am crazy. And darn it I like me.

Last but not least, yes, this unclean spirit business. For me, at this point, it's snake oil. Okay cool you found out that kale is good for you. But, I'm still gonna eat steamed cauliflower and broccoli. Can't help it. I love it. With cheeze wiz. Great, terrific, Omega 3 fatty acids are the bomb but, i'm just not gonna live on cod-liver oil. Or join your multi level marketing thingy. Sorry, can't do it. That stuff is disgusting. Chia seeds cure cancer? Ya know, maybe they do cure cancer but, I still like flax and dang-it-all I don't really care that cashews ph balance are slightly acidic and they're one of the less good for you nuts. I LOVE cashews. Get in my belly cashews! Low magnesium is the cause of all diet related illness you say? Again, freak momma I can only drink so much G.D. kale juice! I should go paleo? My prehistoric ancestors were all on the paleo diet and show no evidence of type 2 diabetes or osteoporosis? Well, ya know, that's cool, but I'm not gonna lie that half a stick a butter with my morning coffee and 12oz stake makes my stomach rumble.

I think you get the picture. One spiritual nutrient...I mean, great, talk about it. Share your wonderful discovery with the world. But, there's a lot of nutrients. And sometimes, one man's medicine is another man's poison.

p.s. sorry for going off. Me and stimulants don't hang out often but when we do...things get weird."
posted at 13:15:48 on August 15, 2013 by they_speak
are you saying i didn't interpret you right?    
"Who are you to tell me what you think?"
posted at 13:59:15 on August 15, 2013 by beclean
"Well I tried to be indirect about it. Lol. No, I dig a lot of anonymous post's. And, like with Aussie, I find I often dig the spirit behind their words too. Sometimes, I even think I can tell them apart. It's kind of a fun game. Lota wise dudes/chicks that for some reason or other don't feel the need for a user name.

Don't get me wrong I get what you're saying. It's annoying sometimes trying to keep responses in order and occasionally you do get the snarky invertebrate hiding behind the anonymous option but I find it more rare. In those instances they have proved a pretty ruthless bunch of rabble at times though. Funk them for that. On the other hand, I'm a pretty big dick at times too."
posted at 17:01:06 on August 15, 2013 by they_speak
I only post here once in a blue moon?    
"They Speak "sorry" if this was not you! I do apologize and hope that you will forgive me? I have been called prideful a few times and my whole country has been denigrated on this site. This is the main reason I post anonymously. Not that I am sensitive about this issue but I do not want people to suffer any more negative consequences than they already suffer. It's one thing denigrating me but a whole country?? I am sure Heavenly Father must love some of these people in Australia as hard as might be?

I really don't pull any punches either. However I find many double standards on this site as well as super-sensitivity. I grew up / was dragged up in a house hold and country were you just say it how it is. I am the first to drag myself over the coals when I stuff up. So I am trying hard to walk on egg shells and approach things much, much, more sensitively, when it comes to this site and try hard not to hurt other peoples feelings.

I think I know who this person may be? the person who seems to really hate me and it actually maybe a female a girlie? I'm not sure who it is but my love and prayers are with you, whoever you are!

Half the time I don't really know what you are talking about They speak or whom you are talking to. But I do wish you all the best and I wanted to let you know that you seem, deep down, like a really good person."
posted at 05:11:40 on August 16, 2013 by Aussie
"I have not seen you on here that much, but you kind of came on the scene like a bat out of hell. Ya know, with hyperspeed. You started out by giving advice and telling everyone that they answer to their porn addictions was to cast out evil spirits. BTW, there have been many posts on this blog about the casing out of evil spirits. I think that most addicts understand this more than your average non addict. If you are an addict and have not done this, it is vital that you do this. You seemed to come on strong. From reading on here for a long time, most people come on here to share a bit of themselves.

One of my favorites who rarely posts anymore is HERO, a wife of an addict. She shared so much great information, but also shared herself. She made herself vulnerable by showing us that she was hurting while healing, and it was hard work I really admired her. She had such great things to say that really helped a lot of people on here, but she never seemed preachy because she shared some of her personal self, I think most everyone connected to that, both husbands and wives.

We don't really know you at all. What scares you? What has life been like living with Kick it. Was all well in Zion, or were you like all of the other wives who were deeply wounded and trying to heal? You share your strengths with everyone, but what are your weaknesses? Are you an addict to anything? What makes you human? I think if we could know more about your pain and your road to healing from the effects of your husband’s addiction, we could relate and connect with you. It is hard to help others when there is no real connection. Preaching doesn't help anyone. People want to know you, the real you, not just the you that seems to act strong and have all of the answers. I can see you are trying to help and believe that to be genuine, but you are also easily offended and believe that the only way is your way.

I am sorry to say but when I read your posts, you say more about personal power than you are about the power of Christ to heal. You seem to set yourselves apart from others by making statements about the people on this blog not getting it, and that is why there are slips and relapses. You seem to say “be clean” and God will save you. Your husband seems to believe that if you are clean before God, he will let you into his kingdom. Although no unclean thing can enter in, we are all dirty, are we not? We cannot clean ourselves no matter how hard we try. We are all fallen, are we not? I thought that we are supposed to take our dirty selves to God and he will do the rest. I use to believe we earned favor before God, but I do not believe that anymore. What are your thought on this? Am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Your words suggest that people relapse because they have not done it the way you did. You are not the first people to think that you are healed and will never slip. We have seen people with 10 or more years (who were healed) fall prey to their addictions again and you are no different than them. Everything you are saying, and then some has been said over and over again on this blog, so it must be the delivery of your message that is hitting a raw nerve with some of us. Much of what kick it says seems to be laced with a lot of guilt and shame. Sorry, that’s how I see it

BTW, I think Australia is Awesome! I love your accents, and I love Kangaroos. I am not Girlie, and I think They Speak is a very good person on the surface, no digging deep down required. I don't hate you or anyone else (that’s a very harsh word). I do think you come across with a lot of pride, but that’s Okay because pride is just another expression of fear. I think you are afraid and that is okay too because we are all afraid of something.

I know that I am an anon, but I am betting that even those with names on this site would like to know more about the real woman Aussie, because deep down inside I think there is probably a very sweet, compassionate, and vulnerable woman. Please share. "
posted at 11:24:41 on August 16, 2013 by Anonymous
Very well put, Kick it    
"Forgive me if I didn't notice anything new in what you said this time--you've been saying it over and over, and we have all taken note. However, you said it very well, in my opinion. Thanks for restating it. I do the same thing when I want to drive a point home.

I only beg to differ one point. You still seem to think I have brought the "philosophies of men" to this post, and so you won't believe what CS Lewis or I have said.

However, I believe I have shown with the Word of God that loving others is more important that keeping yourself pure. Of course, we should do both, so it really doesn't matter which is more important.

I just found it interesting to read what CS Lewis wrote, since I'm not sure I had thought about it that way. AND I believe it to be fully supported by scripture. If you have a problem with CS Lewis being the "philosophies of men," then please ignore every sentence in which I mention him and read the rest of my entries above again. They are completely supported by scripture, in my opinion."
posted at 21:34:02 on August 16, 2013 by BeClean
Walks like a duck, looks like a duck?    
"It might actually not be a duck.

Oh boy did I think that way until a story about one kidnapped young lady named Elizabeth Smart was found alive.

Most everyone had speculated that Elizabeth was taken and killed by the man with the last name of Ricci. He was jailed on an unrelated charge, and while in jail he suddenly passed away of a aneurism . He died under a massive cloud of suspicion . Even her family members believed that he was somehow involved. The evidence was pointing right at him. This poor guy dies with many in the public eye believing that he killed her. Then she surfaces alive! For those who know the story, they also know all about this. So, I had to chime in on this one because whenever I hear someone use the duck analogy, I always think of Elizabeth Smart and what that taught me . Other than that, I appreciate what KICK IT had to say and agree that the answers are so simple, all we have to do is look and be healed.

Her story taught me a big lesson about judging others and whenever faced with the temptation to size someone up, I refer back to her story."
posted at 22:48:32 on August 16, 2013 by Anonymous
They start wandering away from the simple truths contained in the 12 step program    
", the importance of going to group? "Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience..." I'm just sayin, you're not exactly the buff guy handing out supplements to the fat kids when it comes to the 12 steps. At least based on what I've seen. If you do believe the 12 steps you don't talk like it.

As far as the philosophies of men mumbo jumbo honestly your opinion doesn't really mean much at all to me concerning any of that. I ask God what He thinks. Wether I'm reading Gandhi, Dr. Eyring, or the New Testament. That's good enough for me.

"I am for the truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it's for or against.” -Malcolm X

Charity...Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. -Paul

I want to say to my friends that we believe in all good. If you can find a truth in heaven, earth or hell, it belongs to our doctrine. We believe it; it is ours; we claim it. Is that right? If you find an error here, I ask you to leave it, pass it by, let it alone; do not embrace it in your faith, do not practice it in your lives. I say to all, to my brethren and sisters and to strangers, if we teach anything that is good, receive it, I beseech you. If we have any good in our doctrine, believe it and embrace it, it will do you good. If we have errors, do not embrace them. I have been trying, for almost forty years, to tell the people how to be saved. I have always made this proposition to every man I have conversed with on the subject of truth and error, “If I have errors, I will give ten errors for a truth. Do you want to trade?” -Brigham Young

"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals." -First Presidency of the Church February 15, 1978, entitled “God’s Love for All Mankind.”

p.s. Aussie, almost forgot about you. Yeah, maybe, way down deep. But I doubt it. Oh and, totally forgiven :)"
posted at 01:08:17 on August 17, 2013 by they_speak
excellent points, They_Speak    
"Love it! I love to tell people that the bible isn't required for salvation—we believe many were saved before the bible was written. For that matter, no book or specific word of prophets is required, since SOMEONE (Adam at least) was saved before any prophet said anything that we know of.

Furthermore, no book can contain all the truth... Neither can all the books in the world. TRUTH is God—it's another one of his names, along with LIGHT and WORD and WAY. Scriptures and prophetic writings can NEVER contain ALL the light, ALL the word, ALL the way, or ALL the truth, because that would mean they contain God.

Holy words of truth are found in many places, and they all serve to introduce us to God in some small way, but the only way for anyone to have eternal life is to KNOW God personally. We must go directly to the source and talk with him the way all the prophets have.

Truth, from whatever source, should lead us to him, the source of all truth."
posted at 02:29:10 on August 17, 2013 by beclean
Both President Gordon B. Hinckley and    
"President Monson, speaking in General Conference, have quoted C.S. Lewis. Also Milton, Mother Teresa, St. Francis of Assisi, and many others. Does this make them dangerous to listen to? Or maybe they're just deluded?

Also, no general authority has ever mentioned the casting out of unclean spirits in any talk on addiction, including sexual addictions, that I have ever read or heard. Nor is it mentioned anywhere on the website in connection with addictions. At least one has mentioned -- in General Conference -- professional therapy as a possible necessity for some addicts in getting past their addictions. Could it be that the Prophets and Apostles are intimidated by the world, as it was said that this (intimidation) is the reason that bishops and stake presidents talk about therapy and meetings and getting to the roots of the problem, etc. (considered psychobabble by some)?

It's exceedingly difficult -- especially for those of a certain political bent -- to believe that there is any room for individuality in the kingdom. Yet the opposite is true: the kingdom of heaven cannot exist without individuality. I'm talking about the Celestial Kingdom now, not the Church. Perfect beauty has an infinite number of faces, each one flawless and perfect, infinitely beautiful, but each one different from all others, with rare, and I mean exceedingly rare, but significant exception (and yes, I know of Joseph's Smith's vision of the Twelve, where they all appeared to be identical).

That's what you'll see in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, different faces, and, oh my, different personalities (what an apostate I am for suggesting that!!!) And different tastes!!! (soccage in fief and barratry on the high seas, hang that man for uttering such heresies!!!) . Yet the heresies I utter are true.

But, and I mean this sincerely, seriously consider having any and ALL unclean spirits cast out of you (not just one). But if you do this, do it right. First, fast and pray. Read the Gospels, especially paying attention to Christ's healing miracles. Believe in them. Read 3 Nephi 17-18, and believe in those miracles. Call those who are to administer to you in advance, and ask them to give you a blessing on Fast Sunday, and tell them what you specifically want them to do (cast all the unclean and evil spirits out of you). Then go to the Bishop's office (or somewhere that you and they feel comfortable) and have the ordinance performed. And believe that Christ can heal you. Always have faith.

But there are various paths to recovery. Part of the test and much of our growth comes from finding out what works for us. And that is hard work. Use every resource available for recovery and healing, including priesthood blessings, including the blessing mentioned above. Whatever works for you is of God. But what works for some does not work for others. Please accept this fact."
posted at 14:34:58 on August 17, 2013 by dog
"Hence all the scripture found in my posts above."
posted at 17:46:48 on August 18, 2013 by beclean
I know you are    
"...but what am I?

Seriously Kickit. Grow up. No one is doing that here. As overwhelming demonstrated."
posted at 23:07:05 on August 18, 2013 by they_speak

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"If, through our unrighteous choices, we have lost our footing on that path, we must remember the agency we were given, agency we may choose to exercise again. I speak especially to those overcome by the thick darkness of addiction. If you have fallen into destructive, addictive behaviors, you may feel that you are spiritually in a black hole. As with the real black holes in space, it may seem all but impossible for light to penetrate to where you are. How do you escape? I testify the only way is through the very agency you exercised so valiantly in your premortal life, the agency that the adversary cannot take away without your yielding it to him. "

— Robert D. Hales

General Conference, April 2006