An Update before my Break
By moronidenovo
10/7/2012 1:28:06 AM
I'll post my last blog in a few days. I need a break but I feel I should write this.

Before I start: Do NOT trust people so easily online. Its so obvious, but truly you dont know who you are dealing with. I had the unfortunate luck to be a victim of this crap. Someone on this site picked up my email from a post i made, an emailed me. The person told me their story of addiction and all that, i told him mine. I trusted the person. He eventually played a game where he pretended to be 5 people in order to make me tell him stuff I usually wouldn't say. He pretended to be a woman, a teen guy, a friend of that teen guy. It was a twisted game. His excuse: im an addict and this is my addiction. i was extremely angry. Not only had he broken trust and was being an awful person, he was making excuses.

I'm not going to say dont give your email out, but Don't give your trust out. Until you meet someone face to face, they could literally be anyone. I was just thinking this same person could be making accounts on this site trying to do the same thing again. That's why im done being an "accountability" partner because i suspected he was one of those accounts. Not worth it. But please stop talking to anyone who is getting to comfortable with information or anything weird. Keep contact minimal. This site is a site for addicts. So we are dealing with weird people sometimes!

OK. Now to my Update.

So, I've been doing what I believed would help me best. That is, doing my absolute hardest to at least stay away from porn and continue to masturbate. That helped, of course it didn't always work. I think I started trying this in June this year. I think I posted "Using Math: Porn VS Masturbation -----------------> Take that BeClean lol" And most didn't like my idea. I can say without a doubt I've progressed. I dont crave porn very night anymore. I dont stay up until the next day anymore. I dont feel empty inside each day because of what i did last night anymore. I think I've used porn twice in the past two months. I walked right into it because i was bored. But i believe I'm better.

There was almost steps to my progression. At that time, I looked at porn every night for 2 hours until like 3 in the morning. The reason it was so late is because I fought it until it was so late and I was tired, that I just gave into it. I wanted it. I decided I had to try something different. So I said I'll just continue to masturbate but at least stop using porn. Guess what, harder than I thought. I'll call it stages but it's general.

1st stage: You can't masturbate.
Crazy! You're body actually needs porn to do that, doesn't that sound crazy! My mind was addicted to porn and without it I couldn't masturbate. That made me feel so low. Its kind of a joke so take it lightly, but i was like " Am I raping myself if my mi.d doesnt wamt this?" LOL. Addicts can think funny. But after a week of no porn,I could actually do the deed. Many times, I fell into porn. It was a rocky road, but the gaps between days I used porn and didn't grew. Over time, I don't use porn for weeks and so forth.
2nd stage: realizing you need the gospel for success.
I reached the point where i could physically and habitually avoid porn. But, a lot of times i felt nothing. And that's where i willingly walked into porn. This made me realize i have to actively study the gospel for the rest of my life. If i stop, I'll go back into porn.
Stage 3. Making a circle to the past.
Being almost where i was before my addiction to porn.
I look to the future and realize i have a lot of work to do just to be an active productive member. Not to say an addict cant be but i think i was definitely crippled by porn. this is kind of funny, but i think I've progressed far.

An indication is, that i feel guilty when i masturbate haha. I'm like, i should not do this. Crazy! I remember when i was 13 and i thought i was going to hell for masturbating and that the bishop would excommunicate me. I miss that innocence i had when i was younger. I actually want to curb masturbation soon and eventually not do it anymore. Its great, I'm looking forward to that peace of mind. I remember being depressed because i looked at so much porn. And now i feel guilty about masturbating haha.

But yes, I dont have that temptation for porn anymore. from experience, I know I can get right into it so easily. The key is to never think your safe and therefore can look up provocative stuff. it might be borderline, but I always just fall right into it. Also, I need to work on actual gospel stuff. I dont do enough of that.

Overall, I'm happy that porn is not the source of my insecurities. Now it's the normal stuff Mormon guys worry about. Not reading the scriptures enough, church, family, girls girls, missionary prep. I'm just glad I can be confident spirtualy soon. I'm still in recovery, but ill get passed it and move on with my life.


"That is way creepy about that online dude. I'm sorry that happened to you. :("
posted at 08:45:24 on October 7, 2012 by g1rlie
"You could turn to the only source of power, your savior Jesus. Anything else is a mere substitution and will last only so long, then you will find yourself back where you started. Satan uses substitutions and self deception to get you to turn to and lie to yourself (using masturbation) rather than turn to the only one who can heal your addictions and reasons behind it.

us addicts who has been at this game for a long time can tell you they have played this trick and many other tricks and methods only to find themselves at the Savior's feet. Some people on here will give you a big congrats while you are still injuring yourself and those around you. Sorry I am calling a big BS on you Bra. Read the white book, the non watered down way to get sober and stay sober. indulging in lust means you are still caught in the cycle of addiction. Don't wait until you continue this cycle for years and cause great damage in your life. In stead turn to God and live.

Once you have completed your 12 steps at least once with true sobriety, then you should think about sponsoring another. You must first pay the price and walk the path before you can help another to true sobriety. Your method of self deception could cause much damage to others. God's path is the only path to light and I hope you will try it.

Moroni the mission age is now 18 and I hope you will get connected with your Bishop, a 12 step program , and serve a full time mission. Armed with your tenacity, coupled with sobriety, humility, and the Spirit of God you will do great things!"
posted at 11:20:45 on October 7, 2012 by Anonymous
"My bishop never recommended the white book. He never said anything about going to a 12 step meeting. I've talked to my bishop about my problem. I'd rather listen to him because he knows my situation and circumstance. I know you mean well, but I wonder if people like keep others down by making their success look like nothing."
posted at 11:31:37 on October 7, 2012 by moronidenovo
What success?    
"Geez, man...anytime anyone tries to help you, you take offense. I doubt very much your bishop knows about your ingenious plan of congratulating yourself for jerking off. Moroni, you are so silly."
posted at 13:49:54 on October 7, 2012 by Anonymous
"I take offense:
"while you are still injuring yourself and those around you. Sorry I am calling a big BS on you Bra."
"Your method of self deception could cause much damage to others"

-Who knows why I take offense, you were so kind with everything you said. I don't think you see the judgment in your own words. You must feel that just because you're repeating what you've heard a thousand times that you can just go around telling people that they're doing "it" wrong. I don't know why you feel you have a license of judgment on others, especially when you do it in a crude way. Good luck in your real life outside of this site."
posted at 14:16:50 on October 7, 2012 by moronidenovo
I don't man    
"I see what you're saying Anonymous usual I'm gonna play a little bit of the devils advocate here. Moroni isn't the only person who's followed this approach and had "success". Some even long term. In fact I have personal childhood friends, most of them, who followed this approach and to this day do not struggle as I have. Card holdin members.

Ya know I think especially given Moroni's age it's probably wise to try different approaches. I mean can any of us say that it was anything but our own experience that brought to where we are? I've tried the manual massage and move on method a million times and failed. So, for me I know it doesn't work. But how would I have known if I didn't try? For my card holding member friends I think it was wise for them to try that route and not freak out about it. It seemed healthy for them. They, weren't addicts. Why approach it like one?

Moroni is always talking about the normal kid beatin off once in awhile to the dirty old man video chatting online all day continuum and honestly at his age I think it's relevant to consider. I didn't know I was a powerless addict till August 2010. I was 29. How could I have known? I hadn't yet exhausted all my resources. I hadn't failed myself into submission. I just think it unwise to assume everyone is exactly the same and the same approach fits all.

Some people have to quit heroin first. Then years latter they use the same 12 step approach to quit smoking. Is that exactly like what we are talking about here? Maybe? Maybe not exactly. All we know is lust is the root of our problem. Lust is the killer. For an addict if it is not dealt with eventually it will manifest in a degenerative fashion somehow. It appears by all accounts it is unmanageable for the true addict.

Moroni, I hope my being a dick to you hasn't made you lose ALL respect for me :) I say that because dude, the white book is the jam! You should check it out. Even if you prove to not be a low life scoundrel addict quit like the rest of us I believe it will help you become a better missionary. Leave no tools off the table. It may not even end up being about you but who you could help and how effectively.

A couple years ago I, so he tells me, helped cause a kid to go on a mission. I don't know why because all I ever did was cuss and swear at him and tell him forcefully to be friends with God. Mingling profanity with scripture. But he swears all I ever did was bare my testimony. Pfft, Ha! He certainly had an eye for diamonds in the rough I suppose. Anyway, as he was waiting to leave on a mission I started taking him to 12 step meetings just because I thought he would be a lot better missionary. Any do gooder can relate with the righteous. But the real gangsters of the Lord know the sinner. Jesus hung with the sinners in his life time. I'm telling you he still does today. I'm sure right after conference he booked out of there and to an AA meeting. Consider it. If not for you, which it will help regardless, do it for others. What do you have to lose?

and p.s. that's not some sly way to get you into recovery material. Take it or leave it. But it's good stuff. 13th article of faith brah."
posted at 14:32:08 on October 7, 2012 by they_speak
"Any effort is a step towards total surrender. If you had the chance to watch conference, especially the final session, you will hear the word of repent and total surrender (or submission).

Is your Bishop endorsing your specific recover plan of weaning off porn via masturbation? If so, I would say that things in the church have really changed!

It is really hard to surrender, until you actually do it.

Moroni I hope you will shave a bunch of years of pain and suffering off your life and surrender. TS spoke about young boys that were not truly addicted. And if you are one of those lucky dogs that is not actually an addict, I guess you don't need Jesus to overcome this.

Do this little test to see if you are an addict. Just stop. If you can and never get back into it again, you are one of the lucky ones. If you can't stop, may you need to surrender all you are and all you have to the Savior. Isn't that the point with all of us?"
posted at 17:41:28 on October 7, 2012 by Anonymous
"I don't know man. I'm guessing you're someone I usually agree with on here Anonymous. I usually like the Anonymous crew on here. However, it's not so much your philosophy that i'm not feelin right now as your style. I can't really tell if you're being passive aggressive with statements like "I guess you don't need Jesus to overcome this."? Com'on man. What's that mean? I also don't get it in conjunction with your opening line "any effort is a step towards total surrender." Exactly! Also, the test? I get it. I'm just not sure it's that absolute for everyone. "Only the Sith deals in absolutes". Maybe Moroni will find after the experiment he's conducting now that after a few months/years he is able to put it behind him with minimal obsession. It's possible. Maybe improbable. But possible. It's also possible that if he conducted your cold turkey method he could reinforce negative obsessive thinking at a paramount time for him and it would end badly and in failure. I just think prudence is in order when suggesting things being a strict certain way. One mans medicine is another mans poison.

To take my role as the devils advocate one step further I have one more thought. A disclaimer: I'm probably wrong here. I could be right. I have no idea. Just a thought. But it's based on data that I've observed or learned about. Deep breath Moroni i'm gonna start in with that science riff raf again but maybe you'll dig it. The problem with acting on an impulse with compulsion is that we reenforce those neuro-pathways and synaptic connections of resistance to impulse followed by obsession followed by compulsive acts followed by guilt followed by impulse etc. What I like about Moroni's current approach is that it seems possible he is making a more executive decision. Albeit an "evil one" I would take an so called evil choice over acts of obsession compulsion. This is all based on the premise that he is in fact making a conscious executive choose by masturbating and not acting on compulsion there either. Perhaps, in a bazaar backward way choosing to masturbate rather than resisting until compulsively looking at porn can, in some people, reenforcing their higher executive function in the brains prefrontal lobe and ultimate lead to the ability to choose more healthy alternatives?

In the Buddhist tradition of vipassana meditation when one is "sitting with strong determination" - not moving or opening the eye's for an hour in indian style on the ground - they are taught that if discomfort becomes over powering to the point they can no longer observe their discomfort with equanimity to then focus on their breathing and make a conscious choice to redistribute their position. They are taught never to react. But to act. To act, act, even at the expense of making it to the hour. And trust me when you are sitting straight as an arrow pushing your limits/patience/endurance with the intent to last an hour with equanimity of mind it is very tempting to push yourself till you just in a burst of compulsion relax your posture and mind. It is much more difficult and advanced to stay focused on your breathing and then choose to reposition. The idea being that you are becoming a choosing being. Not a reactionary one. Rising above karma (cause and effect). One who observes with a stillness of mind. Pretty much similar stuff Lehi teaches us in 2 Nephi 2.

Is that a stretch in relation to Moroni's program? Probably. Like I said, just a thought. But, I just don't believe it's completely void of merit even if it's not ideal and potentially a guarantee for failure. Experiments. If the seed produces bad fruit it's a bad seed. Good luck dude."
posted at 21:35:33 on October 7, 2012 by they_speak
Long Day, anyway    
"Many comments. They_Speak you are smart not because you have a lot of knowledge, but because you can think. A lot of people dont have the ability to think, they just regurgitate information they've ingested over time. Zombies.

Ok so, to comment on your first post. Yes, a big reason I took this approach (apparently very evil - anonymous) is because I dont have the luxury of time like some of the old people here. 18 is the age now. That's a big reason I'll be leaving this site for a while. I need a break. But yes, essentially essentially the idea was to get off of porn first, then masturbation. Porn is just such a huge roadblock in my spiritual progress, I knew it had to be dealt with first.

I have great respect for you. And I dont mean sound like I will never attend a meeting or never take a look at the white book. Its just what anonymous wrote, its like you are a bad person because you aren't doing it this way. I love this line you wrote: "I just think it unwise to assume everyone is exactly the same and the same approach fits all." that says it all.

@Anonymous what is that. that the idea of surrendering? Is it saying, I'm not going to try anymore, I surrender. You say surrender to the Lord. What is that. Right now, I know I need Jesus. I dont what your talking about not needing him. I do, no matter what. I think your obsessed with catchy lines maybe? Saying stuff that sounds good in a crowd but one it comes down to getting to work with each person and their different circumstances, can you still must keep repeating your catchy lines. I dont know, I didn't really want to respond to your Judgmental posts but here it is, sorta.

@theyspeak. Haha, actually I did follow your science hypothesis. And you actually have a glimpse of what is going through my head. Yes, your sciencey analysis is actually spot on. I am trying to break that habitual routine of porn. No doubt my brain (and all those fancy functions) are used to that chemical high. So I had to break it! Somehow! I could've started using meth, that might've solved it. Or weed, or some other thing. But I thought since masturbation was part of it and relieved some of the sexual build up, that was more appropriate. And guess what, it worked. I broke the cycle of porn. It worked for me, it might not work for others but it's worth a try.

you are like me they_speak. We enjoy overthinking simple situations. I'm hardwired like that. I have to think about every aspect of something in order to formulate the best outcome. It may not be the most usual or recommended approach, but it gets me where I need to be. I'm goal driven and that where I was coming from.

I love what you said, if I interpret it right, where you say I'm almost accepting an "evil" in order to break the sciency habits, then yes! I know masturbation isn't recommended (although I dont think it's evil and adults love to make youth feel awful about it) but if that helps me to stop the greater evil, then it works. If this is a battle, what would a smart commander do?

Well, hope I covered most. They_speak you explained alot of what goes through my head. I just didn't know how to write. Sometimes I wrote parts but a lot of people would say "Moroni! Surrender for you are sinning and trying to convince yourself you're ok for that" But you thought beyond, and thank you"
posted at 00:09:06 on October 8, 2012 by moronidenovo
Interesting Discussion    
"@Moroni: I like what you said about using masturbation to stop pornography use. As much as I hate to admit it, I’m in a similar boat with you. I haven’t looked at pornography since July, but I continue to struggle with masturbation. The longest I have ever gone without was about 8 months. I recently went for three weeks, but then I binged big time on masturbating the last couple days. I am trying to get back on track now, but it’s difficult. I have always been like this. The porn just seems to supplement masturbation for me, I guess I’m after the physical high that comes after a release.

You’ve brought a few interesting thoughts to me. For one, the church really doesn’t have such a hard-line stance against masturbation the way it used to. You may have mentioned this before, but a search for the word “masturbation” does not yield any results on or any of the church’s other websites. What does this mean for us? I cannot really say, but I have noticed that bishops are not talking about this issue the way they did when I was a youth.

You and TS were having an interesting conversation about whether or not masturbation alone can help wean the mind from porn. I don’t have the answer, but I find it interesting that I basically did this on my mission. I never looked at porn, but masturbation was a daily occurrence. At one point, my mission president told me not to focus on this problem, but to just give myself to the Lord’s work. I would like to say I did just that, but the guilt from masturbating made me feel like a hypocrite every time I taught a lesson or participated in an ordinance. It’s also worthwhile to note that I looked at porn the night before I was set apart, went 2 years without it, and then picked up exactly where I left off with porn just four days after my mission. The pattern I see from looking back is that I can replace porn with masturbation, but I’m still going to feel unclean.

That’s just my experience, and I hope that can help you. Good luck with getting ready for your mission."
posted at 14:06:57 on October 8, 2012 by ette
You are kidding yourselves    
"If you think that just masturbating is ok as long you're not looking at porn, you are seriously fooling yourself and believing the lie that satan is feeding you. It is wrong and there is not any counsel from the church saying it is ok. You are screwed up if you think it's fine! You are just trying to find a way to justify your selfishness and lack of self control. You are giving into the natural man rather than controlling your urges."
posted at 15:42:10 on October 8, 2012 by Anonymous
"Anonymous, point out to me where anyone has said they think masturbation okay and that they have no intention to stop so I can temper my urge to mock you.?

"Selfishness" "Lack of self control" "Giving in...instead of controlling your urges"... Is that all it is?

Question, and if you could I'd really like an answer: How long have you been in recovery? How long have you been sober? How does it work for you? Very very VERY curious."
posted at 16:48:45 on October 8, 2012 by they_speak
"Did God Change his mind on masturbation? Was there an announcement we missed that masturbation is now an acceptable method to overcoming lust? Use lust to overcome lust. You guys are all supporting each other with lies that will never save you. You think you are different, but at the end of the day, we are all the same.

Men can have all the plans and schemes they want but until we give our whole heart and soul to God, chances are we will not get past this and our families will suffer as we are the on again off again leader in our homes.

Re watch conference, especially the last session and hopefully you will understand what is meant by total surrender. If you have to ask, what is meant by total surrender?, you do not understand yet. Once you have let go of the world and give all of your heart to God, you have not surrendered. Jesus or your higher power is the only way. Any other way is just a temporary solution. Total surrender means total abstinence from lust. SA ans LDSAR are only one way to get to the place of surrender, but they have proven effective.

I find it funny that all of the people on here that are offering these great suggestions have not managed to master their sobriety and healing. Do what they do and get what they get. They keep slipping. Once we surrender everything to God, we have no more disposition to do evil. When we do that, we will understand that our attempt to become healed and sober by any other means is only just another attempt to try to find another way around God's laws. Just talk to anyone with 3 or more years of sobriety and see how they did it. I have not met anyone who got there by using any form of lust (mast). Surrender everything. Your pride, your heart, your sins, everything.

If you are angry about what I have said here, you just do not understand. Your ways are not God's ways no matter how badly you want it to be that way, it just is not. Addicts or non addicts will need to surrender. The plan is the same for all of us. When you are exhausted enough from the pain from sin, you will eventually surrender. Some need to take a lifetime to understand this most simple of ideas. Others will see that is the only way and do it. we will all get there, the question is when?"
posted at 16:55:06 on October 8, 2012 by Anonymous
2.5 years    
"How did I do it?
I use the 12 steps of SA, a sponsor, and work the program. My higher power leads me.
The white book says it like it is and I use it daily. I tried lots of tricks including replacing porn with masturbation for 31 years and nothing worked until I got real, let go, and let God."
posted at 17:02:30 on October 8, 2012 by Anonymous
"(this is to the anonymous above the anonymous this post is under btw) You've mastered your sobriety and healing? Tell me more about that.

p.s. I'm not offering any suggestions. I said it hasn't worked for me. I'm just giving perspective. Questioning possibilities. I guess there is no room for that in recovery? You're the only who seems angry. Maybe just emphatic."
posted at 17:04:33 on October 8, 2012 by They_Speak
2.5 years anonymous    
"That surprises me. You talked (in the first post that I responded to) like someone who doesn't understand addiction. I thought you were a wife honestly. Congrats on the sobriety. Guess you know what you're talking about. I still don't think anyone is saying masturbation is okay. And I don't like blanket statement like calling it just being selfish and lacking self control because I think that's only a part of the story. But I could care less if I think your opinion is horse shit or not it does make me really stoked to see it can be done. That you've sober so long. I'm jelly. Congrats man. And I'll take someone in your shoes' opinion 9 times out of 10 over my own...that's why I asked, to know how serious I should take you :)"
posted at 17:13:15 on October 8, 2012 by They_Speak
tried everything    
"None of the Bishops I had ever suggested SA or LDSAR . In fact, I was pronounced clean over and over again. I did not think I was addicted, I just thought I was weak and not as good a man as all the others who could overcome lust. After 31 years of trying everything possible I finally humbled myself and began attending meetings. Even that was not enough. It was when I decided I was tired of living in limbo that I got with the program and worked it as prescribed in the book and at the meetings. I stopped thinking I knew something, let my pride go, and now I am sober. Looking back I can't believe how simple the solution was. I am amazed at how clear my mind has become. Best of all I do not live with guilt & shame , and I no longer look over my shoulder with fear that I will be found out. I am earning the trust of my wife and kids through honest living. They key is that I do not have control over my addiction, but as I surrender it to God, he does."
posted at 17:34:05 on October 8, 2012 by Anonymous
"which anon are you? Are you both (anon right above me and 2.5 years)? If not then, anon right above me, so you've been sober a long time? That's dope man. Why don't you guys post more about your success?! This site is full of us losers posting about failing ever other day and then when ever you anons post half the time everone gets mad at you because it's often a little course. I personally love the uniquely AA brand of "a little rough around the edges". And I always usually guess you guys (not all of you) have good sobriety just by the way you talk, most the time. Yet you never post about your successes under a user name. Do your thang I ain't mad but freak moma I'm sure not posting anything worth while.

Anyway, the only thing that bums me out is I swear to Ba'al I've tried and often do everything you just mentioned...and I'm still nothin but a no good bum (active addict). I hate it. For the fist time in 10 years i'm toying with the idea of chemical supliments (prescription :) ) for my retarded brain...I've given up...because I just can't seem to do it with God and exercise alone. I'm beside myself. Anyway, I digress. I'm just glad you dudes are doing so well and posted about it so Moroni and others, myself included, can see why maybe you aren't just a bunch of idiots parroting platitudes.

...think I've reached my post limit for the day (i'm on a new ADD med I'm unstoppable on the bla bla bla bla bla front)"
posted at 18:00:42 on October 8, 2012 by They_Speak
New anon--not sober    
"I am relatively new to SA, and I don't really have sobriety. But I do have faith in my sponsor, and he's.been sober for quite awhile. He says sobriety takes time and practice of the SA program. I believe this and am working the program."
posted at 19:56:36 on October 8, 2012 by Anonymous
So much anger    
"People people, can't we all just, quit being dicks. Namely some of the anonymous, if not only the anonymous.

@Ette Good for you. Porn is disgusting. The church has compared it to cocaine, saying it might even be more addictive. It promotes immoral behavior at the expense of many victims. It twists what god has created and makes something beautifull into a disgusting perversion. Like they said in general conference, many souls are danger only to make a few men rich (something like that) Porn is a different beast, its bad. The fact that you've been able to stop since July, is something to be celebrated. I dont care what this anonymous person is saying. We are not "skrewed" up. we we just know what's at steak and know, that masturbation is not as bad as porn. So if masturbation helps right now, we do it. Simple as that, calculated decision to help us grow in the future. I believe the Lord would understand. I dont think he sees us all in black and white, there are things we must do to make changes.

@Anonymous (You are kidding yourselves) Not much to say. I'll quote you: "You are screwed up if you think it's fine." Ya, not much to say.

@Theyspeak (pfft) I know, nobody is saying it's ok. He's reading stuff that doesn't exist.

@Anonymous (Sobriety) Please show me the CombatingMasturbation website that the church has set up. You make it seem its as bad as porn, so in your world show me this site because the church is taking this "evil" deed so seriously. You know the fact that you think we are awful people for masturbating doesn't quite bother me as much as you make yourself sound so high and mighty. Until you surrender you will know, surrender surrender surrender. It took you what 30 years? And you expect me to do it in days,weeks, months? You dont even bother to explain it. You just say "attend the meetings" then I'll know. Stop acting like your better than everyone, it helps nobody.

I dont know about everyone or anyone, but I dont want addiction to be a part of my life. I dont want that lifestyle. Going to meetings every week, talking about the white book like its a bible, or obsessing over 12 step. It sounds awful. I'd rather focus on the gospel and Living, not always trying to say I'm powerless and try better next time. It just seems like an awful way to live, and no offense but I'm early enough in this "addiction" to stop now and move on with my life. I know many on here wish they could've stopped earlier, but they didn't. And now they are defined by their addictions. They are known as the addicts. This is no offense to those people, but I dont want to live like that. A lot of you guys are wise, smart and some are humble. Many are not so humble, but i hope they mean well.

I take responsibility for my life. I accept my past, but i won't let it define me."
posted at 23:21:07 on October 8, 2012 by moronidenovo
Lifting others    
"Those of us who have sobriety do not give advice. We refer people back to their higher power and share their experience and what worked for them. The truth is that everyone needs to get their exact plan from God as they know him or her.

I sponsor lots of guys and see progression when I see surrender to God. We all start out by fighting it, by trying to fix it ourselves, but eventually we lose enough or become tired enough and give it to God.

Perhaps you have never actually been to SA or LDSAR. This is not at all how you described the people who attend the meetings. You made them out to be losers who define themselves by their addiction, but they do anything but that. There is a spirit of love and acceptance between brothers. It is a place of trust where the spirit is felt stronger than you may ever feel at church. No pretending in the SA meetings, just raw truth.

By admitting we are addicts we are just saying we are powerless over lust. So we may be powerless over lust, but God is not and will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. We use the power of complete faith.

Why do I still go and why do others still go if we are sober? Because it is not about us. We are there to support and help our brothers to sobriety. If we don't go who do they look to? They see that we have found peace and sobriety and begin to have hope that they too can have it by following in our footsteps.

Moroni, I hope you will try it. I wish I knew that I had this option at your young age. If you have this thing wrapped up never to return to lust again, good for you. After you have a year or more of healing and sobriety, I hope you will reach out and inspire others. You can only teach after you have paid the price. My words do not come from a place of anger or pride, they are wisdom born from the pain and the realization of what lust ( in any form) has cost me.

You call the anons prideful by thinking their way is the only way. We are all saying the same thing, you must surrender. I am not going to try to prove to you how my life is better than it has ever been because you have already made up your mind about me. I will leave you with my testimony that you can go through this life with clean hands and a pure heart. You do not have to struggle with addiction, you can be healed and when you have been healed you stay where God places you, by leading others who are seeking truth. Once they have discovered the power of surrender, they will follow along that same path and help others. No pride can be felt here because I give all credit to my higher power who keeps me clean as long as I continue the practice of daily surrender. It's not about me, it's about God's power to save us from our sins."
posted at 01:47:41 on October 9, 2012 by Anonymous
"Read the book Leadership and Self Deception"
posted at 01:53:08 on October 9, 2012 by Anonymous
"You've never been to a meeting or read the white book? Dude, what are you going to do on your mission when (and this will happen in some form or another) some evangelical who's never read the Book of Mormon tells you it's a book of the devil and that going to a cult church every week sounds awful? Catch my drift? I'm no shinning example of how this whole thing is done but this much I can tell you, The Spirit of God is at those meetings. I guess at least the Spirit of God doesn't find it that awful. I get it if you don't need them or whatever but having an opinion on something you haven't done is kind of silly. I'm not encouraging you either way. Do your thang boy I aint mad atch ya. But don't form opinions on things you haven't really investigated. That's dumb. Dumb people do that. You're smarter than that.

As far as the white book and surrender and the 12 steps go Malcolm X said it best "I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it's for or against." Don't short change your brain by closing it off so hastily. You want to focus on the gospel and living? The 12 steps are about living the gospel so you can focus. See what I just did there? ;) That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

If your tired of hearing about surrender than you probably shouldn't study the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The parts in the garden of gethsemane and on the cross will just drive you nuts! While your at it just tear the whole book of John out of your scriptures. In fact you should probably just not read the new testament... Nephi also epitomizes surrender so throw him out too. Oh and never, never, study Buddhism. Or Hinduism. And AND, don't even think of reading the Tao Te Ching. Also, yoga is probably not the exercise/lifestyle for you either. And last but definitely not least surfing probably isn't a good idea if you're not into understanding the nature of surrender. Other than that though you're golden I think :)

Anyway I'm mostly kidding but last thing I'll say about "explaining" it (surrender) - can you explain feeling the Spirit in a way that someone who's never felt would go "Oh yeah, I get that."? Probably not. Have you ever been skydiving? Or seen something so amazing you just can't explain it you just have to get people to experience it for themselves? "Explain this taste of salt to me you speak of?!" I think it's similar with surrender. It's sounds nice, if not confusing, in theory. But we have to experience it for ourselves. Surrender, in my experience is like love. I've known it when I was in it. And I know when I'm not. Reproducing is the hard part for me. It's an art. Hard to explain."
posted at 03:47:49 on October 9, 2012 by they_Speak
"Wow, just sitting here reading all these posts have ne amazed. This stuff is not for you? So why the heck are u on an addiction recovery website where we promote the white book, the 12 step program, different books that can help us surrender ourselves to god? If you are early in your addiction, then you should be able to stop cold turkey, right? Have u tried that? If u have and it hasn't worked, you are just like the rest of us... in need of help. Not from me, not from anyone on this site that can think through situations and support their reasoning. From the lord only. If u want a good thought out explanation from an LDS perspective that will back up your silly MB argument, then here you go... />
Do I agree with it? No. Does it make sense? Yes. Does it matter? No. You wont get over it by yourself. Take it from someone who has struggled with it for 19 years now."
Sipping and tilting    
"@Anonymous"Lifting others" I dont know if you've posted before, but you are very kind with the way you write. That's a big issue here, I feel that a lot of people write with judgment. The first anonymous actually said we are screwed up, how do you expect people to take that well, you know.
Sorry if I made adicts sound like losers. I didn't want to make it sound that way. i just meant, I see a lot of people that write here say they do alot of these things. Sometimes it doesn't even work for them. It takes 20-30 years to finally understand or surrender. And I just dont want that type of lifestyle. I know every situation comes with its blessings. I think these people know a lot about healing and the gospel that others who have never had true addiction, never experience.

I'm not ruling out the whitebook, sa or ldsar meetings. I was just simply answering a question that I've never tried them. I'll probably do the book, but I just can't see myself going to a meeting. I'm kinda introverted and it just doesn't seem like an enviourment I could be comfortable in. I know it could have benefits.

@TheySpeak haha at least you tried explaining it. I have an idea of what it is. But please tell me its not where you: stop fighting and surrender. What do people mean by stop fighting. Like do you just start using porn whenever or stop trying to not search nasty stuff. That kind of worries me. Giving in? Is that when you stop fighting. Idk, its just sometimes the word surrender has a negative connotation in my mind.

If surrender you mean we pray to the lord, study scriptures, go to church, meet with bishop, then ya sure I get it. But it kind of is confusing when you compare it to love. So instead of an action, its a feeling? So I dont surrender, I just know when I feel surrendered?

I think most of you mean well, but maybe if we try to explain to each other what we mean it might help more. I remember someone saying one time that, this site doesn't always help. Because people are giving so many tips that work for them but it doesn't always help the person. Idk.

Final thought. I dont mind meetings or white book. I do mind when some people freak out when we dont do things there way (lords way I guess?) and suddenly we are screwed up."
posted at 18:55:04 on October 9, 2012 by moronidenovo
"I'll try to talk in practical terms but I think metaphor will help too. Hopefully people more experienced with sobriety will write how they surrender but this is my experience.

For me I have found surrender to work when I know, I feel and acknowledge, in the deepest fibers of my being, experientially, that I am with out reservation powerless over lust. Experience is the key. We are here to learn by our own experience. It is not a complex process of grueling mental uncovering. Logic and thinking alone never brought me to it. I don't believe it could have. And believe me I tried to reduce surrender into logical pros hoping to understand it for years and it availed me nothing. I don't think it could have. It had to be more a matter of fact. I've found it works best when it's simplest. I'm perfectly comfortable in the knowledge that I am powerless and admit it frankly. Nothing doubting.

It's more similar to military surrender than one might think. I'm cornered. Guns on all sides of me. Making my own move is death. To fight is death. To run is death. I'm powerless. Yet all these years i've been fighting and running right into an ambush. Finally it dawned on me. I surrender. Not because I understand it intellectually but because it's true by my own experience. I'm surrounded by the enemy. Period. Ya got me! I surrender! Here's the paradox. I surrender to God. I admit to God/myself i'm powerless. Then I just chill and wait for the miracle. It's like the teaching of Wu-Wei ( ) in Taoism. It's when I'm struggling and fighting that I know i'm not getting it. And worse I'm probably in trouble.

I have found at times i've done this and truly done it - surrendered thru and thru - something miraculous happens. The solders with guns on me almost vanish without me even noticing. I'll realize a half hour later that what ever I was obsessing about just went away. All most imperceptibly. Like I get a call and don't even consider not answering and in the process of talking totally forget I was about to call a prostitute and decide to make plans with my friend and I'm out the door. And by the time I remember, it literally having left my mind for a period, usually it's lightened up enough that I can go on with my regular business.

I used to think it was kind of bull crap because I didn't feel like it worked. But, then when I finally was defeated enough and my surrender was no longer just an exercise of intellect and logical expression but simply acknowledged reality as it was it unlocks things I'd never seen. I have yet to be consistent. But the few times it's worked it was so wild I just knew it was real.

I'm not sure I could have discovered it for myself with out rock bottom..."
posted at 22:43:36 on October 9, 2012 by they_speak
They Speak    
"Beautifully said. Surrender to God and let him take your addiction. Once we get hooked on whatever it is, we lose our ability to make a choice to stop. Our agency is the only thing we can give God. Everything else is already His. The only thing we really own is our agency. Once we have lost that to addiction, the only way to regain it is to surrender.

This is hard to explain to someone who is still thinking they just need to find the right answer for them, that they are somehow different than all of the other addicts. We all thought that at one time or another. When Moroni said that he is not the kind of guy who would go to those meetings because of his personality type. That is what we all thought until we became so tired of our "problem" that we were willing to do anything to overcome. There is a better world on the other side of addiction. It is often said that it is only hard to do until you actually do it. The truth is that you do not have to work so hard to overcome. That is what the Savior already did. All we have to do to accept His gift of Atonement, surrender, and put all trust in Him. Then we are changed forever. I think the SA and LDSAR meetings are a great place to start learning how to surrender.

None of us want this . Not one of us want to be an addict, we just are. It is our thorn. Some of us have many thorns. God gave us this weakness so that we would turn to him. Reading, praying, church, Bishop and everything else is all great stuff and is extremely important, but none of it has the power to save our soul. Only Jesus can do that. A deep and personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Yoke yourself to him and he will make your burdens light. "
posted at 00:03:10 on October 10, 2012 by Anonymous
Just like "Cross Talk".....    
"Nothing we say here to each other should be used to try and convince someone of the error of their thinking. All we can do is share our own experiences. I still am not convinced that there is a "cookie cutter" approach to recovery, even though i am a big fan of my 12 step program and I firmly believe it saved my life. I am three years this month, no porn or mb. Before that, I was 35 years in chains..almost daily mb at it's worst....I'm also a big believer in Brother Hilton's work on the brain. Masturbation releases dopamine, "the pleasure chemical", and Oxytocin, "the bonding chemical". Both of these create a bookmark in the brain, that it wants to return to over and over again when it feels stresses of everyday life. The brain actually searches for these bookmarks when it needs relief. Ultimately the addict substitutes masturbation for REAL intimacy with a woman. If he tries to maintain both worlds, he will fail. Masturbation is Satan's substitute (counterfeit) for the real thing. Again, all this has been my experience. i share it here for anyone who has been there and for anyone who is on their way there.
The goal of recovery is to break the addictive cycle of Fantasy, Ritualization, Acting Out and Shame. I need structure in my brain to maintain recovery. Everyone here has done a great job sharing their own experiences. Ultimately this YM will have to find his own way. You all rock!"
posted at 11:48:03 on October 10, 2012 by chefdalet
Here was a good thread    
"( )...from right around the time I formed my opinion on powerlessness, surrender, grace and what Nephi meant by "after all we can do" that may help add some dimension.

It helped me to re-read it. Sometimes I surprise myself reading back. I actually remember the day "I didn't want to look at porn for 2 seconds" I was standing in my tiny room at my moms house in front of this giant old black tube t.v. from the early 90s and I just knew i'd been had. I was surrounded. Screwed. Nothing I could do. I would act out if I tried to fight. No doubt in my mind. Curtain death. I told God "dude, I got nothing but bad desires to give to you today." It was simple. As a matter of fact. Not an intellectual battle of mind (that's fighting. to "figure" it out and that always leads me to an ass whoopin). Simple. Wu-Wei. The next thing I know hours latter I'm doing something completely different like hanging out with my friends or wife or something I can't remember now. But I remember it dawning on me latter that day the moment my mind miraculously shifted gears. I was still in front of the t.v. and a thought, a simple little thought, came to my mind (now I don't remember exactly what it was but i remember having a thought). It was a "I forgot I needed to do [this or that thing]" kind of thought and off I went. I all but totally forgot about the obsession. That was from God and to him I owe all praise. I had nothing to do with my sobriety that day except praying and admitting total surrender. That Moroni is my idea of surrender. Because of that day and a few others I hold out faith that it can be reproduced consistently. And even if it doesn't work out for this ol' scoundrel I know it worked a couple times. It worked that day. No doubt in my mind.

That's the reason I love meetings and people that go to them. Church seems (i could be wrong) full of people who are proud of what they can do. Some act like they could pull a damn handcart both ways across the plains and only give God the minimalist of credit. I'm over that mentality in myself. I want to stomp all remnants of it out of myself. I get your desire to just want to over come this and move on. It's fair enough. I used to share the same desire. Nothing wrong with it. But for me, I've come to a place where I don't mind actually, not just paying the idea lip service, knowing that "of myself I can do nothing". And I like hanging out with people who genuinely know this truth (meetings).

If you ever do over come this apparently by your own methods Moroni my only hope for you is that it doesn't serve to make you a prick that thinks he is strong like Sampson. I hope then by some means other than having to get so beat down - like Sampson - that you are reminded who really has the power. Not intellectually. Not the ability to say with your mouth "I know God is my strength". Every member in the church says that. But to know by experience. To experientially become humble. This is why I will never be ashamed or frustrated to count myself in among those at the meetings. Because I, as ironic as it sounds, believe that is where I find the real saints. The one's who know just how powerless they really are. That God is the beginner and finisher of their faith.

Peace. Wont be seeing me for awhile :)"
posted at 12:12:41 on October 10, 2012 by they_speak
Love it!    
"Well said!
I don't know why there's been so much wasted breath on trying to convince someone to surrender anyway. Were any of US able to surrender until we absolutely HAD to.

Unlike the Gospel, recovery is more a program of "attraction" not "shove it down your throatism""
posted at 14:37:30 on October 10, 2012 by Anonymous
"Yes, that Mormon Pride is the very thing that tests my faith sometimes."
posted at 14:38:20 on October 10, 2012 by Anonymous
"Thanks for your comments everyone. We all have different view that are shaped from our experiences. What we share in common is usually teachings we have been taught from the church or meetings, and that is also valuable. I appreciate the time put in.

They_Speak, you said you have a blog. Is it a personal blog or public? I was just wondering so I could check up on ya."
posted at 20:40:26 on October 10, 2012 by moronidenovo

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"Lucifer will do all in his power to keep you captive. You are familiar with his strategy. He whispers: “No one will ever know.” “Just one more time.” “You can’t change; you have tried before and failed.” “It’s too late; you’ve gone too far.” Don’t let him discourage you. When you take the path that climbs, that harder path of the Savior, there are rewards along the way. When you do something right, when you resist temptation, when you meet a goal, you will feel very good about it. It is a very different kind of feeling than you have when you violate commandments—an altogether different feeling. It brings a measure of peace and comfort and provides encouragement to press on. "

— Richard G. Scott

General Conference May 1990