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Using Math: Porn VS Masturbation -----------------> Take that BeClean lol
By moronidenovo
6/29/2012 5:41:52 AM
First off, me and BeClean are buddies so no one freak out.

This is the MoroniDeNovo approach, many on this site hate it, very few love it if any, but this is what I believe and I only speak what I believe, or at least try my best to. I will be using math to explain my thought process, HERE IT IS:

EQUATION ONE:)

*1 Sin + 1 Sin = 2 Sins. BUT 2 sins - 1 sin = 1 sin

I believe that practicing one sin (until you get the other under control) is better than practicing both. That's not to say that you aren't still fighting both, or fighting one harder while slowly reducing the other. Let's take Masturbating and Porn, as [asdfjkl1234] says "They go hand in hand ( sorry no pun intended)." Of course the pun delivered great lol. But the point of my equation is that if you solve 1, your a better person. If once you solve 1, and you solve the other, you are a betterer person. But, what if you try to tackle both and only make it a few days, as almost all of us can relate to. Why take the stupid route? Oh yes, they go "hand in hand." Not so!! Let me further explain with my next equation... keep up people.

EQUATION TWO:]

Let's establish the variables..

Porn = Mental stimulation
Masturbation = Body stimulation

*Porn + Masturbation = CHEMICAL X!! (Powerful Drug)

Ok it's not really Chemical X, that's from the powerpuff girls, but lets say it is. That is a powerful drug, Porn + Masturbation.

You don't need Porn to Masturbate, let's ask the men who didn't have access to porn back in the day, am I right? You almost always (99.99%) Masturbate when using Porn. Makes sense. Lets use math..

Mental and Body stimulation are powerful and addictive. But! Take one out of the equation and thChemical X is less powerful and eventualy non eXistant. SO, Which one is more powerful, the mental stimulation or body?

EQUATION THREE;)

PORN (Mental stimulation) > [Greater than] > MASTURBATION (Body stimulation)

MENTAL!! Porn!! So much worse! If you stimulate ur mind, ur body reacts. So, which one should we take out of the equation ladies and gentlemen? Yes, you got it! PORN! Lets get rid of porn first and it's evil powers.

If you if your first commit to not look at Porn, say a day, but continue to masturbate, it helps fill some of the void that Pornography left and alleviate the craving for Chemical X. I hope it didn't confuse anyone?

Have you guys ever heard of a drug addict stopping cold turkey? Oh you have, good for you [insert sacasm]. Anyway, most drug addicts have to gradually step off there drug use. Some go from doing coke 3 times a day, to 2 times a day the next week. The once a day the next, and so forth. The speed of regression depends on the addict, but the concept is the same.

I'll say it for future commentors, yes Math is a weird way to look at this because the gospel is true and thats all we need, but hey, we can't read each others mind and math is the Universal languange.

Feel free to comment on one EQUATION or all, I'm up for a discussion. That's why this site is here.

Comments:

Oh and Anonumous said    
""plus you can go blind and grow hair on the palms of your hand...
nasty habit.." Haha I love, the Catholic approach!

Sorry if I seem loopy, it's almost 5 in the Morning and i Really didn't want to look up Porn so I'm here.... goodnight, or goodmorning."
posted at 05:47:40 on June 29, 2012 by moronidenovo
Problem with the Equation    
"I'm actually not going to try an tackle your equation now, I think you make some good points. However, for me, M opens the door; I want more and my mind becomes a Pornographic magazine; I'm looking at all the real women soaking up, storing up.... just to help with the M. That me though. I did really enjoy the natural way my body dealt with the issue when I had over a year of Sobriety: once or twice a month my body would (on its own without me own worldy methods) release the built up stuff and I'd wake up without an ounce of guilt. The expeince gave me a big boost in sobriety. Sometimes there was a crazy dream associated with it; but I'd just be dealing with the dream which is a heck of a lot better than dealing with Guilt associated with Self-tampering. YES it does happen naturally without our help; but it does take patience:)"
posted at 06:45:11 on June 29, 2012 by myid
Why the need for this justification?    
"Moroni,

Why do you work so hard at justifying your sins? When we sin, we ask for forgiveness and abandon the sin. The atonement justifies and purifies us. We are not supposed to excuse our sins.

I don't know why you would think you can masturbate and still not fall into the trap of lust. What do you think most people have going through their heads as they masturbate? They are undoubtedly having sex fantasies. Whether the sex fantasy is in your head, on the computer, or on paper, it's all pretty much the same. Satan wins in all cases.

Have you ever read the miracle of forgiveness? President Kimball spells it out in black and white that masturbation is wrong. He never says that masturbation is ok because it's better than porn. President Kimball also suggests that masturbation is a gateway sin that leads to acting out homosexually.

Saying that masturbation is ok because it keeps you from looking at porn would be like a pedophile saying that raping women is ok because it keeps him from raping children. Such rationalization is absolutely ridiculous!

Quit fooling yourself, Moroni. I hope you can learn to live the first step and truly admit that you are powerless over this addiction. You think you have it all under control, but you are deceiving yourself."
posted at 08:54:01 on June 29, 2012 by ETTE
there is no half measure    
"as an addict I try to convince my self that half measure will work but no"
posted at 09:13:41 on June 29, 2012 by mike81
Hey buddy    
"You feel strongly about this, and I hope it works for you. Until it does, however, I'm going to state that it worked much better for me to work on BOTH problems (actually ALL of my many problems) at the same time, but to be patient and forgiving of myself when I messed up.

It so happens that I largely gave up masturbation about 8-9 years ago, even though I was still viewing porn. I've had a few slips since then, but they we're actually rarely connected to porn (definitely not 99.99% of the time). Porn was much harder to give up, and it largely ended about 5-6 years ago. It's only been the last year that I have felt strongly that I'm in control again and my freedom from these addictions is mine to lose. That feeling was once again confirmed to me last night in an amazing (for me) experience I had when my wife ran off to the store after all the kids were asleep.

My success also came from YEARS of consistently focusing on dailies, giving up inappropriate music, attending meetings, working the steps, being COMPLETELY and immediately honest with my wife, and not obsessing about every slip up (just confess, get back on my feet, focus on the positives, get support, keep going) .

So, while I'm not going to say your method of allowing yourself the freedom to masturbate CAN'T work, I will say it wasn't part of what worked for me. I'd be more convinced if someone with years of sobriety said it worked for them."
posted at 09:33:08 on June 29, 2012 by beclean
Just a question moronidenovo    
"You do make some good points, and I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but food for thought... What is going through your mind during masturbation? You surely are not planning your next service project.

My point here, by viewing porn, or even simply watching women and girls around you, your mind has built up enough of a "porn library" that you don't really need a computer or magazine to view porn. Its already there. By allowing yourself the room to fantasize and masturbate your allowing porn back into your life through the mental back door.

Masturbation requires lust. You can't do it without lust. Sometimes the lust is a very low level I'll agree to that, but it has to be there. It is the bigger problem you should be focusing on, not porn, not masturbation, lust. It is after-all one of the seven deadly sins. If you want modern day words on that look at Elder Holland's talk from April 2010.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/04/place-no-more-for-the-enemy-of-my-soul?lang=eng

Again, I'm not trying to argue. I recognize the hard work you are putting into recovery, and the progress you are making. That progress, slow but steady, faithful progress, is our real goal in life, and you are working towards that. Everyone has their own story of how addiction entered their life, everyone has to write their own story for getting out of it. I'm simply suggesting a different approach to it. Of course, you will still have to do, and should do, what works for you until you find a better way. Progress."
posted at 10:17:34 on June 29, 2012 by paul
Masturbation requires lust?    
"I AGREE that we addicts have a lust problem. When we masturbate, most often we do it with lust. However, I just want to question the assumption you made, Paul. You said Masturbation REQUIRES lust.

I wonder if that really is true...a three year old can "masturbate" when they find that touching themselves in the tub is pleasant. So can a baby, really. Is that lust, or is it not considered masturbation?

If it is not lust, then lust is not required to masturbate.

If it is not masturbation, then what is the definition of masturbation? I thought it was self-stimulation. But perhaps the definition of masturbation is really, "self-stimulation WITH LUST." In that case, it WOULD be true that masturbation requires lust, because that is the definition of masturbation.

But then it would also be true that you CAN achieve self-stimulation WITHOUT lust, which would not be considered masturbation.

Anyway, my point is, while I am, again, NOT encouraging masturbation, ESPECIALLY for addicts, I don't think self-stimulation ALWAYS involves lust.

I think it's possible to self stimulate in your sleep without lust or while you are exercising without lust (sometimes it just happens when you exert great physical effort). I think it may even be possible to self stimulate when you are REALLY, REALLY tired without lust.

In the past, when I was working horrendous hours and getting 3-5 hours of sleep a night for weeks on end, I have used self stimulation as a way to stay awake while reading a book, including the scriptures, and HONESTLY, I received valid spiritual impressions and insights while studying the scriptures that way (which I ONLY did to stay awake while studying and with express permission from my understanding wife). Some of you may disagree, but I found that method of staying away for 10-15 minutes to be better for my spirit and body than taking outrageous amounts of caffeine or other medicine. And my mind was TRULY on the reading.

Again, none of this should be read as encouragement for addicts to continue masturbating. But, it falls in line with what I've been saying for a few days--not EVERY instance of masturbation and self stimulation is a terrible, sinful, lustful event.

Sometimes, it's more like...suddenly noticing that your nose tickles and inducing yourself to sneeze. Or discovering an itch that feels REALLY good when you scratch it (I've had some poison-ivy induced itches that feel literally orgasmic when scratched--is that wrong?). Once in a while, it's just your body doing its thing, without lust."
posted at 13:28:28 on June 29, 2012 by beclean
Replies:MYID - BeClean    
"BeClean I love you man haha..

OK...

@MYID Mast. Opens the door? For most of us, the door is wide open almost all the time! Somtimes we took the door off the hinges. I believe that if Masturbation is your only problem, than maybe it opens "doors" but my equation involves Porn, and that makes all the difference. So what if you think sexy thoughts when masturbating, at least your not contributing to the rich pigs of the porn industry. Over time, as you become stronger in the Gospel, I think you will start to reduce the amount of times you Masturbate and think less sexy thoughts. The sexy thoughts dont come from Masturbating, they come from Porn.

@ETTE I'm not looking for anyones approval, not even yours ette. I will do what I have to do to stop this Porn addiction, your comment isn't going to stop me from that. This is simply a disscusion, does it really bother you that much that someone doesn't see it the way you do? Anyway, I replied above about Masturbating and sexy thoughts so Read that. Homosexualality! Haha, I would love for the church to say that today, love it, but they won't. Why, because people would be marching outside the temple for weeks. I don't doubt that it could, masturbating with a friend or something, but I want the leaders of the church to step out and make more official teachings and statements on Masturbation. You compare it to raping children and women, you live in another world.

@Mike This isn't a half measure. This is a method to stop Pornography, just that. Work on Masturbation once you solved one part of the equation.

@BeClean Not sure if you remember, but I was sober for 1 month with that method. Thats the longest I ever did in the 1 Year I've been using Porn. Unfortunately, my family had some issues and I got depressed, and negative feelings make it a lot easier to fall into Porn, and I did. I felt so guilty about losing my one month streak, I kept going lower and lower. But, I proved to myself it works, and now I'm on my fourth day because I decided I'm going to take this serious, I want to bless the sacrement.
I'm sorry, but I don't have to to wait, 5-6 years to clean my act up. I want to go on a mission, I want to get married in the temple, I need to solve this now. I'm not sure if you were married at the time, but I am still young, and I'm going to solve this sooner not later. I don't have time for your way, the harder way and I don't believe it's neccesarily the "right" way so don't bother saying that cute saying."
posted at 14:14:37 on June 29, 2012 by moronidenovo
We're not talking about "self-stimulation"    
"You're right beclean, an innocent baby or three year old child may engage in self-stimulation without lust in their hearts. You might also engage in self-stimulation by sucking your thumb without any degree of lust. But we're not talking about a baby, a three year old, or sucking your thumb. We are talking about masturabation, defined as follows "manual (and we could add conscious if that helps you) stimulation of the genital organs for sexual pleasure".

A baby or a three year old could self-stimulate without lust because they don't know what sex is. They have no concept of what they are doing. You do. Moroni does. The for strength of youth pamphlet says "Do not do anything else that arouses sexual feelings. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body." Masturbation (defined as simulation for sexual pleasure) goes directly against that prophetic counsel.

Again, I'm not telling moronidenovo that he's wrong for pursuing his path to recovery. If he's seeing real, honest progress, then that is good. I am suggesting that masturbation (which again is what we're talking about, not innocent stimulation), if nothing else, provides time and incentive to recall the pornographic images, videos, and words already stored in your mind. I just don't see how you can possibly masturbate without some of those images in your mind.

Also, you mentioned using self-stimulation to stay awake and study the scriptures? Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but are you really working towards sexual climax while studying the scriptures!? That not only flies in the face of the counsel to "not arouse those emotions in your own body", but seems almost sacrilegious.

I usually very much like your posts and your writing beclean, but that last comment really threw me for a loop."
posted at 14:32:58 on June 29, 2012 by paul
Chill...    
"You need to learn to read the LOVE in other people's post, Moronidenovo. Perhaps you see it, but your own posts don't show that you see it.

MYID, Ette, and Mike care about you. You should be open to their ideas and not shut them down the minute they post.

Congrats again on your 1 month sober. I'm very pleased--but that doesn't show that you have found the final solution.

This IS a LONG battle for anyone who is unable to stop cold turkey, today. We all wish it could be over tomorrow, but the truth is, if we have been unable to stop for the 100+ times we have tried to stop, then we will not be able to stop without a full-focused, fully inclusive, devoted, long-term effort. Nothing short of giving EVERYTHING to God and being fully honest and completely determined will work permanently. Each of us must come COMPLETELY out of Babylon and into Zion. We must forsake the world.

I was about 16 when I started the devoted, daily streak of reading the scriptures and praying earnestly that I am still on right now (15-ish years later). I was not married. Looking back, it took about 10 years of that before I had developed a testimony strong enough to turn my back on the world and to start making real progress towards freedom. If you can take those steps to turn your back on the world in less time than 10 years, good for you!!"
posted at 14:33:12 on June 29, 2012 by beclean
Replies: Paul & BeClean AND LUST    
"
@Paul I think I already commented on Doors and Masturbating up yonder, I think the first or second reply. Lust, Lust, Lust, Lust, Lust. What is Lust, here a littile of what I've found:

Dictionary.com "1.intense sexual desire or appetite. 2. uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness. 3. a passionate or overmastering desire or craving "

Here's lds.org "To have an inappropriately strong desire for something."

I don't believe Lust is required to Masturbate. Lust is a sin men commit because of their desires. Masturbation is response to your bodies urges, the urges that God gave. Do you believe sex in Marriage is lust?? Is that desire to be with your partner Lust?? No, God gave us these urges and feelings, and I as a youth have read numerous articles on Lds.org on sex. Basically, they say we shouldn't feel bad for wanting to have sex and those urges, because they were given to us. Parents shouldn't make their children feel guilty about this, it is natural because God gave us those feelings.
Now, when I first started masturbating, I was 12. No porn. All I thought about, was what my body was feeling. No strong inapropriate strong desire for anything, I was focused on myself. Masturbation does not require Lust, lust is a whole other beast.

@BeClean again lol. I agree with you, Lust is not require to Masturbate. That's not to say you have nasty thoughts now because of all the porn we have seen, but I honestly believe that overtime those memories will fade and Porn will be weak, and eventually none existant. Then, and Only then, tackle Masturbation."
posted at 14:37:18 on June 29, 2012 by moronidenovo
Not working towards climax...just staying awake    
"I could have also poked myself with a needle every ten seconds to stay awake. I chose a different method, and I honestly have ZERO regrets, but I know that MANY will find that impossible to believe. Honestly, those few times I did that to stay awake were the most recent episodes I've had with self stimulation--and I didn't do it every time I "wanted" to, I did it only when I knew I had to do something or I wouldn't stay awake. There were MANY times during that hard-working period when I said, "I'm not that tired. I don't need it." And, when that period of my life was over, I immediately stopped and NEVER did it again. I believe it was very UNUSUAL period where I was using self-stimulation for something OTHER than sexual gratification. I believe there was no lust--more like a medical purpose (is it ok to stimulate yourself for medical purposes, such as sperm count? can that be done without lust?). I believe that I was, at that point, in COMPLETE control. And my point is not that anyone else should do it or believe me or ratify my decision. I don't care if you approve or not. I just want to point out that self stimulation does not require lust, and it appears that you agree with me on that point."
posted at 14:39:34 on June 29, 2012 by beclean
RE: chill    
"I just don't like being judged from my fellow peers, that is all."
posted at 14:40:43 on June 29, 2012 by moronidenovo
Hey Paul    
"Leave BeClean alone. He could have easily not said anything, but he's being honest with us and I LOVE honesty. It shows we're human. If you were enlightend at those times while reading scriptures BeClean, GOOD FOR YOU. I would rather do that than not read the scriptures.

Paul, I've already commented a billion times above on Lust and Masturbation, read..

This Post isnt about ONLY Masturbation, it's solving one part of the equation to solve the other.

thank you"
posted at 14:45:19 on June 29, 2012 by moronidenovo
I don't mind Paul's questioning my honesty    
"But I AM being honest."
posted at 14:51:41 on June 29, 2012 by beclean
I need a break    
"I'm back to spending too much time on this thing. It's great, but I need to step away for a while. I have other things that need to get done.

Good luck, Moronidenovo! And thanks for the great conversation, all.

(Watch, I'll probably be back in 10 minutes, but I'm going to TRY to leave this addiction alone...)"
posted at 14:54:36 on June 29, 2012 by beclean
Ok I'll miss ya Bro    
"Your opinion is greattly appreciated and awsome! Don't pay attention to wat Paulsaid about you, I like all your comments no matter if they "weird" or "annoying" lol. I kniow you said his comment didn't bother you but nobody likes personal attacks like that, I mean whos says that. I usually like your post but this wasn't up to par? No, I like all your comments, even if I disagree."
posted at 15:05:51 on June 29, 2012 by moronidenovo
Ok I'll miss ya Bro    
"Your opinion is greattly appreciated and awsome! Don't pay attention to wat Paulsaid about you, I like all your comments no matter if they "weird" or "annoying" lol. I kniow you said his comment didn't bother you but nobody likes personal attacks like that, I mean whos says that. I usually like your post but this wasn't up to par? No, I like all your comments, even if I disagree."
posted at 15:17:54 on June 29, 2012 by moronidenovo
Addicts- SA White Book    
"You would be greatly benefited if you got a hold of a copy of the SA White book.

The SA program goes much deeper than the Church's ARP program and everyone, men and women would find great understanding about the line that continues to be drawn about what is Lust and what is not. It clearly defines masturbation and how it shows up in the life of a sex addict.

In the SA manual there is no splitting hairs about what your Bishop might think or do. It spells out how a person can find sobriety and healing, plain and simple.

We tend to complicate things with our religion and we tend to think to much with our own brains. Isn't that the problem?It's not about what we can get away with or what is or is not acceptable. When we are completely honest about our addiction, we know what is and is not okay. We know that we are powerless and in need of help and support. We know that we have no answers or tricks that will fix us.

The whole point to turning our addictions over to a Higher Power , God, Jesus, whatever, is to get outside of our own thoughts and understand that there is no way that we as addicted men and women have any control over our lust.

Do we want to be sober and heal, or do we want too live forever splitting hairs while standing on the edge?"
posted at 20:39:09 on June 29, 2012 by Anonymous
Agreed^    
"The White Book is the jam!"
posted at 00:18:15 on June 30, 2012 by They_Speak
The SA Program does work    
"I agree the SA book does not mess around. There are people in the SA program who have many years of sexual sobriety."
posted at 00:19:22 on June 30, 2012 by myid
double agreed    
"Yea what anon said! Awesome."
posted at 01:51:52 on June 30, 2012 by asdfjkl1234
The LDS ARP program is good and all    
"But I am finding that it just dances around the edges. They don't understand the importance of real sponsorship and accountability. I think of us like it because it implements church and is familiar to us. I think we like to think that we are different than other sex addicts who are not mormon. Like we can't go to a community program with "those people". Whatever we gotta do to get sober, but if what you are doing is not working, try the white book because there is no sugar coating going on in there."
posted at 07:32:14 on July 1, 2012 by Anonymous
Agreed^ ;)    
"I don't need a testimony meeting (70%+ of LDS ARP meetings IMHO). A life time of those didn't keep me sober. I need 12 step meetings. I need the company of honest sinners. Not saints.

Sometimes I think gospel talk is just a bandaid for a filthy maggot infested wound that needs addressing."
posted at 09:20:12 on July 1, 2012 by They_Speak


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"Freedom from your transgression will come through sincere faith, true repentance, willing obedience, and the giving of self. Why the giving of self? Because selfishness is at the root of your problem. Where selfishness and transgression flourish, the Spirit of the Lord can’t enter your life to bless you. To succeed, you must conquer your selfishness. When your beacon is focused on self, it does little more than blind your vision. When turned outward through acts of kindness and love, it will light your path to happiness and peace. "

— Richard G. Scott

General Conference May 1990