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HERO - Thank You
By ruggaexpat
12/30/2010 10:37:03 AM
Well I just want to thank you Hero for letting me know about intimacy anorexia. Before I share some of my thoughts, I must say that it is probably too late to save my current marriage but I know what my problem is now and will fix it so that I can be a better man. Unfortunately my wife is just not able to forgive me and so I am now at a stage of acceptance as there is nothing I can do. She is a good person but as she says almost weekly this was a deal breaker. I got to accept that now.

About the IA I had no idea it could be an addiction. This is hard news for me to take because this means I have to do the 12 steps again not for porn but for IA. The amount of effort and work I did to rid myself of the SA was GREAT. I also to some degree had my wife's support but this one I have to go alone as she does not want to build any intimacy with me and she has stated that a number of times this week. I know I will have the savior with me because I cannot do this without him.

I suppose I will use this blog as support again because this is going to be the hard one for me to overcome. This is an addiction that is woven through the fibre of my very being. Porn was a substance or process that I used to medicate myself, this is internal and a part of me and it is a bit scary for me. Boy I do know what is ahead and this is crunch time for me as my past and present is all based on this addiction.

I now know that this addiction until this last week has been carefully hidden by me but now that I have got rid of the other addictions and now that I have tools to identify it, it seems it is just so invincible. It is not going to go easily, it is going to fight, for this I am sure and I am scared how that will play out in my current sensitive familial situation.

How did things play out for you and your husband. I need help on this one because this is my stumbling block, this is the source of all my misery and the misery I cause others.

How do I kill this addiction?

What was critical for your husbands recovery from IA?

Please help, I feel like I am at square one like my first posts asking for serious help.

Comments:

You Can Heal    
"At least you are not in denial. I, we had to get through that process first.

My husband scored 100% on the 10 questions!! IA was and is our biggest hurdle. It is not an easy dragon to slay, but again armed with the right information and tools you can and will be victorious. I wish you could have been tackling this at the same time you were working on the SA because the process are much the same. But, this is also why I have confidence that you will be able to conquer this one. You are a warrior!

After attending the 3 -day intensive couples therapy, we came away with some assignments. All of these assignments are outlined in the Intimacy, a 100 Day Guide to Lasting Relationships. Most of the therapy is also in that book.

"Remember, Intimacy is really not a mystery at all.... It is a process. Honesty about how you feel, honesty about your perceptions and honesty with who you are is central to spiritual intimacy. You can miss the blessing of sharing yourself emotionally with your spouse, not because of spitefulness, but simply because you honestly don't know how." D. Weiss

It makes me so sad to hear that your wife feels this is the deal breaker. I can understand and do not question her feelings. She has ever right to her feelings. But, if she would give this part of the recovery a chance,( the third leg to the recovery stool. ) I can testify that it will be the balm she has felt lacking in this process. I have commented before that until IA was addressed in our healing process, I could not heal. I was continually going through major surgery every day.

I used to think my husband was just wired that way and I either had to accept my loneliness or move on. I compensated by take numerous vacations on my own with my children and friends. I am a very self confident woman; I have worked hard for that. I gleam from some of you comments that your wife is also, thus the strong boundaries for recovery. Thankfully you have adhered to those boundaries.

With discovery: it was clear to me I had been cheated of intimacy all those years! He could share with others outside of our relationship and even seek emotional intimacy with others, just not with me. OUCH! That in and of itsel, is a major healing process for the spouse. One we are still working on. There is no microwaving this process.

I posted earlier to Crushed and I have copied some of that post here. I will get back to you later.
"That bonding hormone is there for both male and female. It is not exclusive to the male gender.

Every spouse who finds herself dealing with the fallout of her husband’s addictions feels all emotions you described in your post. How to get beyond those emotions? I have copied and pasted some great info from the churches web site combatingpornorgraphy.org:

Beware of Comparing Reality to Fantasy
Many spouses feel insecure and intimidated when they compare themselves to images in pornography. The only thing that is modeled in pornography is sexual distortion and spiritual disconnection.

Many women will tell me they feel insecure and intimidated when they compare themselves to the pornography stars their husband lusts after. There are two issues here: (1) the destabilizing hurt caused by a husband’s infidelity and (2) the dynamic of comparing oneself to someone who has prostituted herself in a pornographic scene. Let’s look at the second part of this assumption. Many women believe they don’t measure up to what their husband is neurotically and narcissistically seeking out because they think the porn stars represent a sexual ideal. This is one of the biggest lies pornography invites women to believe. Most pornography stars have histories of sexual abuse, drug use or addiction, mental health problems, failed relationships, cosmetic surgery, and/or sexually transmitted diseases. In short, the only thing that is modeled in pornography is sexual brokenness and spiritual disconnection. Men who recover from a pornography habit also come to this realization and ironically begin to "see" the beauty of their spouse as what they desire and need.

Crushed, I put all of those negative thoughts into my "Jesus Box". A visual way for me to use the atonement, Either write your emotions down or just tell Jesus about them and then tell him you do not want to think like that anymore and you are giving those thoughts to him. Put your emotions you do not want, all of them physically on a piece of paper or mentally and put them in that box. He will take them. He is waiting to help you.


For me it was all those years....... and I mean years....of the loss of intimacy. Not physical so much, (although recovery physical intimacy in the marriage union is amazing! Mind blowing!) Giving hope here :). It was the loss of being nurtured, emotionally, spiritually and at the highest level God intended, physically. God knew what he was doing.. Once the counterfeit sexuality is exposed and as your husband recovers and thaws out, emotionally and spiritually you will see a MIGHTY CHANGE. He will not be lusting; his desires will be for you and you only.

In overcoming pornography habits, individuals must make many adjustments to their behavior or attitude. Often they have become “past feeling” (1 Ne. 17:45; Moro. 9:20). They must learn to reconnect with their feelings and with God, to be humble again, and to trust. The role of the Holy Ghost is paramount in this endeavor and can help individuals experience “a mighty change” of heart that will influence them “to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2; Alma 5:12 ; see also Alma 5:26).

My husband and I did some intimacy recovery work. We had not prayed together as a couple on a regular basis. A practical step for our recovery as a couple was to have prayer together as a couple, He had to be the one to initiate and follow through with this. I could feel his spirit as he communicated with his Father. It gave me confidence and hope to hear his tender pleas. I could feel the Lord take control of our marriage. He is the best marriage counselor.

My husband had to initiate an exercise of expressing feelings to me. 2, a day. I expressed feelings back. There were rules for this exercise. (Outlined in; the book.) Intimacy.
We shared two positive affirmations for each other. Praise and nurturing one another are essential ingredients for a vibrant, ongoing intimate relationship.

"We made rules in our physical intimacy: Always with lights on, candle etc. Always keep eyes open. Keep eye contact. (This is hard a first, uncomfortable, but the rewards are great and I believe help with the cleaning up of the neuro pathways that have been cluttered) BONDING!

We had to have date night every week. At least 3 hours, a fun time spent with each other. One week I planned the next week he planned. When you plan make sure it is something you want to do and when he plans he should make sure it is something he wants to do.

These are watered down suggestions but I hope it will give you the idea that along with your husband’s recovery and your recovery, the marriage has to go through recovery. (three legs to that stool) All of this is work, but well worth the effort. You will be supported by Heavenly Angels. Ask for them and you will receive.

Pray and you will be lead also. He know what is best for you and your family.
My Love to you all!!""
posted at 14:57:42 on December 30, 2010 by Hero
IA Workbook    
"Exercise 75, page 90. you may be stuck here. I know it was and is one of our issues."
posted at 15:23:58 on December 30, 2010 by Hero
Rugga has been the ideal for the past year on this site...    
"There has not been a more humble, more penitent, more contrite addict on this site for the past year than Ruggaexpat, in my opinion, based only on what I have read from him (and assuming he is always being truthful with us).

Are there any spouses out there who feel his wife is making a huge mistake to leave her husband, who has finally acknowledged and dealt with his sins? Wouldn't you want a husband like him? Could you even hope to get another one like him, if you left him and went looking for another?"
posted at 17:51:15 on December 30, 2010 by BeClean
Agreed    
"I have husband like him, and i am grateful I stayed. Her unforgiveness is the larger sin. i wish she would humble herself. She is missing out on some great blessings. Good luck ruggaexpat"
posted at 19:06:14 on December 30, 2010 by Anonymous
Agreed    
"I have husband like him, and i am grateful I stayed. Her unforgiveness is the larger sin. i wish she would humble herself. She is missing out on some great blessings. Good luck ruggaexpat"
posted at 19:06:15 on December 30, 2010 by Anonymous
Let's not judge!    
"It is not over until it is over. Have we really worked the steps? Which one of us can thrust the first stone. We have no right to cast any judgement on Mrs. "
posted at 19:39:56 on December 30, 2010 by Hero
Thanks Beclean and HERO    
"Beclean your support is and always has been fantastic. Thanks buddy.
You know honestly I am a mess emotionally, so my wife has a good reason to feel the way she does. After all these years of neglect in persuit of my selfish interests this is a direct consequence. She did love me and for that I am sure and she gave everything she could. I will never question one ounce of her commitment to love me. She is so deserving of more than I have given her. She is so bright, so much fun and one of those bubbly personalities. I suffocated all of that life out of her and fighting hard to refill an empty emotional bank account.

I have no clue how to love. I have no clue how to feel love. I mean that with all honesty. Love to me is one of those mystery words, like Kolob. I just cannot put my finger on what it all means for me. I know what it means for her and I can demonstrate that but then it is not real. It has to be real to mean something. It will be real when it means something to me because in turn it will mean something for her. I can fake it until I make it with many things but I cannot do that with love. I have to learn all of this from scratch and that just sucks to know now in the early 30's.

My wife has asked me to refrain from saying I love you. I am glad she did because it has helped me realize the truth, that I have not shown the love I have professed. This is why it is crunch time for me. Time is not an abundant resource right now so I have to learn this quickly and properly.
I am happy recovery was my choice and not someone elses on my behalf. I know I cannot question my desire to change and heal. I cannot question my testimony and cannot question my past by asking HOW THE HELL DID I END UP IN THIS MESS. I have the puzzle before my eyes and it all makes sense, not a piece is missing now. I just have to get off my backside and work.

Hero, I finished the IA book. 12 steps meetings resume next week. I will not be buying the 12 step IA book but will use the tried and tested ARP manual for that. I do have the workbook with 100 exercises. Together with these tools I think I will be a real man soon.
I will keep coming back to this thread for a while with questions and follow ups on IA so HERO if you can offer anything that has made a difference in your marriage and you think I need to know about it fire away I want to know about it.

Thanks I love you guys.

Now I know I cannot demonstrate that on a blog but if I had the chance I would call for a group hug."
posted at 19:58:03 on December 30, 2010 by ruggaexpat
Given the man I am now    
"I would do the same thing she is doing. She must look after herself and do her own recovering.
There must still be some sort of hope left in there because she is still talking to me and shows interest in my wellbeing. Today I woke up with a headache, and she brought a tylenol. Hey there is hope even if it is minimal. I'll take it, anything she'll offer. Sounds pathetic to an addict like me who is so used to controlling but I love this girl and will live off the scraps as long as they keep falling. Hopefully after that effort she will see I mean it this time."
posted at 20:10:38 on December 30, 2010 by ruggaexpat
There is HOPE! And yes a group hug is in order.....    
"If there is no apathy then there is hope. You are right to give her some space. She will be able to see by your actions, your sincerity. You will change. Your emotions can be healed. You stated once that you were taking Christ on his word. Continue to do that.

I liken recovery for a couple to a stool with 3 legs. Unless all the legs are strong the stool cannot stand, it might be able to balance for awhile but just the least bit of wind or a small nudge and it will tumble. Each leg has to be strong in order to support any weight. Your recovery, your wife's recovery, and recovery for the couple as a unit. Each requires it's own work.

I look forward to your recovery and your ability to love openly with the full knowledge and understanding of that Godly atribute. Love.... Ask for it, He will give it to you as you do the work.

You have a calling Rugga, you know it and all who get a glimpse of your spirit know it.

You will help many!!!! But first work on you!!

I will pass on further info as the spirit directs.

I read in Dr. Hilton's book about a sister who was going to leave her husband because of the damage done from his addiction. The spirit spoke to her and told her, Your husband will heal, you can choose to be by his side when he does or not, either way he will heal. She made the decision as I did to be there. I pray your wife might consider that message.

Consider the book, Intimacy. If there is anyway of you both reading and applying the tools for your recovery as a couple.

Love and prayers.

Prayers to you and yours!"
posted at 00:19:45 on December 31, 2010 by Hero
Pretending Love    
"I am not recommending using actors as role models but; think of how many actors and actresses who play the roll of lovers in a movie or stage production actually fall in love?......

In early recovery I would put myself in a role. Play it like I was going for an Oscar. How would I play this scene out? My own private production. I write the script. How I would have my fairy tail romance play out. My version of fake it till you make it! To be an Oscar winning actress I needed to display real emotion to be believable.

It is not only the men in addiction who struggle with giving their emotions over to their spouse. Many times the spouse holds back because of fear. The addict is recovering, doing all the right things, but I cannot trust, I had better hold back, I do not want to be hurt again, I do not want to be vulnerable, I have to protect myself. These coping strategies leave the spouse open to developing sexual and emotional anorexia tendencies. I had to take a hard look at myself. Was I holding back even sabotaging because of my own fears of intimacy. I share this because this is a common scenario for recovering couples. Be patient with yourself and with your spouse and your relationship."
posted at 14:27:16 on December 31, 2010 by Hero
Hope your headache is gone :)    
"Props to you for seeing the gift your wife gave you today with the Tylenol. I only have small gifts to give my husband. A foot rub here, a smoothie there...just the little things. I don’t have any big gesture that I can give. I wish I did…but I do not. Giving someone Tylenol is an out stretched hand…even if it pulls away quickly (at least in my book).

If you were my husband and I was replying to him, this is what I would want to get across to him...
If I’m here with you it’s a sign I want to work it out.
If I cry I could use a shoulder, this WILL bring us closer.
Keep trying, even if it feels like I’m rejecting you.
It’s hard to believe that “you mean it this time".
Be vulnerable, if you get hurt I’m truly sorry…but if you close off, this will never work. My walls coming down are going to take time, I put them up because I got hurt. When my walls come down…I will be vulnerable again, that is scary to me. I know it sounds so ridiculous (and unfair) but take your walls down first…then I’ll work on getting mine down.
Knowing that you can love me through this mess of a person I’ve become, will teach me to trust that you really do love me…and that this time IS different.
I want to trust, I want to be free, and I want to love as if I’d never been hurt. I miss that love. I miss the safety.
Don't give up on me.
(These words are obviously written by me and I cannot claim that your wife feels any of the above.)

Hang in there man!! "
posted at 21:22:05 on December 31, 2010 by summer
ah....    
"so inspiring makes me want to become a better person...thank you !!!!"
posted at 22:30:20 on December 31, 2010 by Joshua
two to tango?    
"These have been some excellent comments by everyone. I am sorry I havn't commented in awhile. Anyway, I broke last night. My dear wife experiences the dreaded rollarcoaster of emotions. (and she has every right too.) Sometimes she is so open I could see her insides (ok...bad analogy...that's just gross, but you get what I mean.) Other times, like right now. She is so closed off I don't even know who she is. I have always struggled dealing with this rollarcoaster of emotions. It can really take a toll on me. One of my biggest battles is learning to stay neutral during these swings. The past several weeks though have been taking a huge toll on me emotionally. "I feel" like even though my wife is physically here in my home, she is not really here. She even admits to "keeping her walls up" because she doesn't want to get hurt. This has left me with feelings of unwantedness and worthlessness as a spouse. I have been having more and more suicidal thoughts. I know I wouldn't ever follow through, but it makes my life feel very dark. I know I need to at least continue to live for my beautiful children. They make me feel like I'm superman! So long story short...I started back up on antidepressents. This action alone has made me even more depressed because I despise the fact that I have to take Rx to help me feel loved. Sorry, I know it's totally confusing...but hopefully my feelings are coming across clearly.

My sweet wife keeps telling me to stay open and prove that if I can tough it out and do what she tells me to, that it will prove to her that I truly do love her.

HER WORDS TO ME:" Be vulnerable, if you get hurt I’m truly sorry…but if you close off, this will never work."

At what point does the phrase..."it takes two to tango" apply. I know I owe the world to my dear wife. But I really could use a little something to hold onto while I fight for her love back. She has been telling me more and more frequently that her love for me is not the same. I just REALLY REALLY want to get that love back. Is it too much to ask for a partner in this tango, or do I just accept it because this is a pain I gave to her.

I hope my humbled feelings are getting portrayed correctly. I always fear that my words don't appropriately reflect my feelings. I know I need to give my sweet bride time for recovery. I know that I need to be a stronger man when she comes to me with emotions. I truly do feel like I have surrendered myself to the lord and to my sweet wifes wishes and desires. I understand this is the greatest pain I could have ever caused her. I just feel so alone!! I miss feeling unconditionally loved.

Sorry for the long, possibly unrelated post. I'm not very good at this...."
posted at 02:19:55 on January 1, 2011 by humbled
I have a bit to say    
"Humbled,

Need I say more Summer is worth it man. She is not neglecting you. I will speak from my experience because where you are I was about 6 months ago. No maybe honestly more like 2 weeks ago. Heck man I have been in your position most of this year. My real turning point has been learning about IA. This is an addiction for me. I am now able to see exactly where I sabotage my wife and it is so subtle that I am not aware I am doing it. I am so mean in auto pilot mode. I blame my wife when I really think I am helping her. I do this retarded silence treatment thing when my feelings get hurt. You know like wait for her to say something and then I soften up. But I am actually pushing her away to protect myself.

The truth for you now is that she is not taking my crap anymore and so those old ways of relating and communicating are useless so time to try something new. At least that is where I am now.
Now when my wife tells me I am the monster from hell, I don't just say ok and blow her off, I try deal with her pain directly. I suck at it still but I know what I need to do. ADDRESS THE PAIN. No more victim - this is a big change. I sense it in your writing. Trust me I have been the victim for a year still. I know I must not be one but as long as I am protecting myself and my hurt feelings I am the victim. Think about that this has taken me so much to realize this. She is the victim, she is in pain and so how do you handle a victim? Certainly not say hey look at my pain, you need to look at her pain because she did not cause your pain. It is a lame victim line to say now after what we have done to them that their harsh words are painful. Dude that is lame and I see myself as the lamest of lame.

One more thing - You cannot stay neutral and for goodness sake don't take the addict side of "ME". WE MUST TAKE HER SIDE AND THAT IS IT. When I take my wifes side she heals for that moment. She will wake up and see the monster but then needs me to take her side again. It needs to be consistent, daily and after this demonstration of taking her side she will see we mean it.
Hey that is my take on this whole thing. Who knows I am learning but I think I am approaching a tipping point in my recovery. Time will tell as well as how consistent I am at taking her side.

SUMMER - Thanks again headache is still there. Not anyones fault but mine because I am talking with my wife till late at night and reading recovery stuff (IA) till after that. I am obsessed about my recovery, it consumes me. It is unhealthy at times but that is my desire. The headaches are from lack of sleep and then waking up early with kids in the morning. Does that sound stupid? I am now breathing recovery, sleeping recovery, eating recovery, it is just me, all I think about outside of work and usual priorities. Thanks for the reminder of what she is looking for. I am sure there are differences but you are right on most fonts.

HERO Oh my gosh - I now know where your name comes from, you are your own hero and more than that to my family right now. We sat together watching married and alone. As all the characteristics of IA were read out my wife was like OH MY GOSH YES THATS YOU! Every time, it was great to see her getting some validation and great to have our problems right in front of our noses for us to see clearly. That was the best XMAS present I have ever had, an answer to 100000000000000000000+ prayers.

Loved the acting example. Glad you caught on and could relate to the fake and make syndrome.

Later people will be back to write later.

Hey Josh you are progressing, long way for us all to go."
posted at 10:05:59 on January 1, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Forgetting myself    
"Thanks for your points Rugga. You are absolutely right. I need to work harder at forgetting about myself. It is her pain, and I need to do whatever it takes to take care of her pain. She has actually told me that I am self centered narcissistic because I have asked her for things that I need in a marriage. (I told her I needed to feel a little more love and yearning toward me) She's right...It's not about me. I need to do whatever I can for her right now because this is a mess that I started. Even if it means I don't get the affection or return of feelings I so much desire.

It's funny, I'm sure a lot of other men received this great wisdom around their weddings also, but I was told by many husbands that no matter what..."SHE IS ALWAYS RIGHT!" I of course just laughed it off at the time. Now I realize what they were all saying!! hehe"
posted at 10:53:05 on January 1, 2011 by humbled
What my husband does for me!    
"The dishes, the laundry, washes my car, fills it with gas, makes sure the car is maintained, feeds the dogs and cat, he helped me with the Christmas Decorations up and down for the first time, did most of the Christmas shopping ! Holds my hand in public, opens my door for me, supports me in my calling, makes dates with me, calls me during the day, holds me, tells me he loves me, prays with me and for me, notices what I am wearing and compliments me. Keeps me informed on all financial matters. Answers my probing questions without angst. Doesn't complain about the house if it is not always neat and orderly. Makes me feel important to him. Exercises and watches his diet.

Stopped looking at other women, (at least not playing a video in his mind) stopped having emotional relationships with co workers, stopped lusting, stopped using anger to control, stopped shaming me with money, stopped being my room mate and acts like my husband my lover my friend my eternal companion. Plans and takes vacations with me."
posted at 18:44:53 on January 2, 2011 by hero
As I am right now I am missing...    
"Holding hand in public
Could do more laundry
XMAS shopping
Open door
Dates initiative
Love you
Pray
Notice what wearing
Hold
Compliments
Still think I am the room mate
Vacations planning

Ultimately HERO I realize right the second I can do more in the leadership scheme of things.
While I have improved in most areas, I can do more.
Thanks for these practicals.
Keep it coming, I promise your thoughtfulness to this thread is and will make a difference.
This week has been the best so far in a year because I am focused on really giving to her and serving her.
I will do better.

Thanks HERO."
posted at 19:53:51 on January 2, 2011 by ruggaexpat
I am a little frustrated    
"I started typing a small thought, now it turned into a big blog entry, so I made it into its own blog."
posted at 11:01:10 on January 3, 2011 by lawrence
One more thing!    
"Make a sexual agreement and stick to it!"
posted at 14:37:52 on January 3, 2011 by hero
Frustrated - She does not care and I am running out of hope    
"Last night she took my recovery book and ripped it in half. Freak man I am so disappointed. Fine ladies what must I do to get this girl to realize I am there. Her anger knows no bounds and she does not know how to get it under control. My recovery is a choice I have made. I watched her rip that book in half and it is the very book I am trying to use right now that gave me a reniewed sense of hope. I am affraid she is just not able to get over this anger. The last month I have so improved I know I have, I ask her how shes feeling, ask her if I can do things for her and ask her for what she needs. I certainly make the usual mistakes still too. I guess I need to take her by her word that it is over and a deal breaker. Well honestly if this is the way things carry on despite my honest efforts to win her back then I will sign the papers she wants signed.
This is harder today than ever.

Hero about the victim and blaming which is what I have been good at.
I no longer want to protect myself and my wife knows that but she does the following:

When I say I am sorry she ignores me and says ya right. When I say you are hurting me she says now I am playing the victim. When she says I am trying to manipulate her I say stop saying that it is not true and then ask for her to explain how she comes up with saying I am blaming her.

Holy cow I have feelings too and at what point do they count when she steps all over me in my effort to love her. Sorry but it appears she is sabotaging my efforts to help her heal.

I will say this, dispite my shortcomings I can never doubt my desire and effort to help my wife heal.
Sorry this is a sucky post but this is my source for writing my feelings and recovery.

This sucks."
posted at 06:47:52 on January 4, 2011 by ruggaexpat
hang in there    
"Ruggy, You are always an inspiration to me. Things with me and the Mrs. have been very similar. She even asked me to leave, but things worked out. I have received revelations on how to help my wife, and mine will be different than yours, but God will tell you in your mind and in your heart what you can do. My $0.02 is:

cent 1) Keep doing all of your recovery stuff.

cent 2)) Keep doing all of your recovery stuff, but stop telling her how good you are and stop offering to help her. My wife's counselor said that those things can increase the trauma. She is in shock and her words and actions may be at times irrational, but don't blame her, blame yourself because you did this to her. I hate those words; they hurt me, but that was my problem. I talk too much. Just quiet "I love you's" and conversation about anything and everything except the recovery. Anyway, that helps me, when I stick to it. I have little control as you know, but when there is peace, it is because I am quiet. Quiet with no festering negative emotions. Only God can take those away, she can't, and talking to her can't. This is so hard for me, but it is so helpful.

Love you."
posted at 10:27:39 on January 4, 2011 by lawrence
Thanks buddy    
"Not sure what to do but I look at my post this morning and see the victim again. Yes Lawrence thanks again, you also helped me see it again. So again the victim shines through.

#$%$##&&@!

OK I feel a bit better.

Now to tape that book back together. Kind of symbolic, repairing goes as far as books now.
Still love this wild woman"
posted at 10:47:54 on January 4, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Expat    
"You certainly are. What the hell does the rugga part mean? I think I'm just gonna call you Hester Prynne from now on."
posted at 12:07:59 on January 4, 2011 by They Speak
Expatriated from the wicked world    
"Rugga - Rugged bugger I am
Also refers to the best sport in the world."
posted at 12:36:09 on January 4, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Hang in there    
"Rugga, Although your wife's actions are 100% wrong, they are still normal. What you did might explain her behavior, but it most certianly does not excuse it. Please contiue to be patient with her. I have of a IA addict husband and he does his best to heal the pain he has caused in me. It takes a lot to trust him, and I can feel Satan playing with that trust on a daily basis. It does make the road smoother when I are willing to be open to the forgiveness that Heavenly Father brings me. Your sweet bride is dammaged and one day she will realize that, but today is t that day. Although you hurt her, she is still responsible for her actions and her pain does not give her license to hurt you in return. I do have to say that it is hard to trust anyone after what has happened, even trusting God is stretch. Remember your wife trusted God in her answer to marry you. Nothing makes sense to her anymore. She has a lot of why's that will never get answered.
But she can and will heal. The more she is open to God's will, the quicker she will heal. The more your love her, the quicker she will heal.

Please, don't give up on her. Keep praying for her and for yourself to guide her. Things are about to get better. Stay the course. It is always darkest before the dawn. Hold on."
posted at 13:10:14 on January 4, 2011 by Anonymous
Black and White!    
"Try to avoid the black and white syndrome. Have patience in the process, be kind to each other and know that each of you are going to have some struggles in this recovery process.

I have to tell you Rugga when you posted that your wife tore up your recovery book and that she is so angry, I thought, not so bad! She did not attack you with a frying pan or wake you up out of a dead sleep with a fire arm pointed in your face telling you to get !@#@#$ up and that you had better stop @#@$% telling lies and that she was going to make sure you told the @#$%$ truth...... you dirty rotten !@#@$%$#... not to make lite of these very traumatic and personal events, because it is indeed and intense situation. I have found that most of these actions came from an inner turmoil of wanting somehow to make him feel or get a small glimpse of just how bad I hurt or how hard it is to forgive someone who you totally trusted and thought would never do anything to harm you in anyway. I must say, I did get the desired effect....... Not an act I am proud of or would shout from the roof tops, in fact it was down right crazy! So much of this process is getting though the craziness. So dang crazy!!

I asked my husband what did he think he did that helped with our healing process. He said that at first he was so concentrated on helping me heal. What I needed or what he could do for me. Then he realized that he had to concentrate on himself and making sure he was turned round right. Get himself straight and on track. Because if he was not right then I was not right. I have stated this simply in order not to confuse the issue.

I have also been thinking of one other issue that you mentioned. When my husband would ask me what I wanted him to do, I would get angry! I wanted him to grow up, and quickly, and to figure out for himself what he needed to do and DO IT. He is a smart successful man! What do I need to tell him about anything he really cares about? If he truly wants something he gets after it. He reads about it, gets advice from his friends and people who know. Reads the latest and greatest info...... you get the picture.

I worry about making this next statement as to not offend, but, I am sure you know that addicts are emotionally immature. The spouse comes to a realization that she has been doing most of the work in the relationship. She knew it before but now she is mad about it. She realizes that it was because of the addiction that you could not be there for her in the ways she had needed or wanted. So now for her to have to tell you what she needs and how to do it just makes her MAD. So my suggestion is to work on getting an understanding of what real emotions are about and as you thaw out and become real, like the Velveteen Rabbit, (read that one to your kids if you have not read it) and rely on the Lord for guidance and understanding.... you will know what she needs and how to give it to her. You will be alert to her and her needs. You will strive to serve her and take responsibility for her maintenance. You will be happy in your service and you will see love and harmony in your home.

I hope this makes sense. It is late and I tried to express my thoughts on your posts. I can edit in the morning if I need to.

Real Forgiveness is when you stop wanting the other person to hurt also.

Keep working, keep believing, keep hoping, keep the faith!

Love and prayers to you. "
posted at 03:03:17 on January 7, 2011 by HERO
Hero,    
"I hear a lot about what the addict needs to do for the spouse to heal. That's not really how it works, is it? Would it be appropriate for an addict to tell the spouses what they need to do for the addict to heal? Or would it be more appropriate for the recovering spouse to advise the spouse that is new in recovery what they need to do to heal? I think we've all "justified" the spouses anger until we're blue in the face. It gets old."
posted at 05:56:43 on January 7, 2011 by Anonymous
Anon    
"I agree Paul thanks.

Anon I asked these questions and just want to be reminded if that is cool with you.

Just read over that which is of little interest to you.

One final question and I am curious to know your thoughts:

How can the spouses help the addicts heal? Would love to know in all honesty?"
posted at 08:49:01 on January 7, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Don't not never use none of them quadruple negatives.    
"While I understand what you were saying and agree with you Rugga, that was a lot of negatives in that first paragraph. :)"
posted at 09:57:33 on January 7, 2011 by paul
rugga    
"I'd try to answer your question if I understood it. I'm an addict so I WOULDN'T presume to give the spouse ANY advice on how they could help the addict heal. And I wasn't talking to you anyway. I could give you an earfull but I know you're in a difficult spot right now. So I will just say, keep up the good work."
posted at 10:28:07 on January 7, 2011 by Anonymous
And I just say    
"read on mate.

I have been in the same spot for a yr thanks.

Unless you missed it, HERO was not responding to a public question, she was writing to respond to my questions I posed and initiated. So I think your comments are a bit misplaced to be honest. Kind of like butting into a good discussion saying guys please end your discussion because what you are saying is getting old and I have heard enough now.

Sounds a bit rude don't you think? Dude read on, go for a walk or better yet write a long blog about how old the anger thing is getting, I am sure you will have a fan club in no time. Obviously this bothers you so much.

I would just love to hear your earful, my ear is right on the keyboard shout loud so that I can hear you ok."
posted at 11:25:45 on January 7, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Addict    
"It seems like you are trying to make everything even between spouses and addicts. Addicts caused the pain. Spouses need healing. Spouses can heal without the addict, but it is better when the addict is humble and helps the wounded spouse. You caused the pain because of selfishness, and now you are not wanting to hear about how you can help your spouse as she has to go through PTSD because of the pain you caused? Addicts that are not humble and do not help their wounded spouse are the first to experience divorce. Rugga is trying to be a hero to his wife and you are not. I would suggest you choose another blog to comment about. There are plenty of addict victim blogs that will welcome your comments.

Anon, read this and see if this discribes you:
Are you a narcissist?

It is difficult to recognize a narcissist because he (or she) spends all of his time acting, protecting his ego by presenting to the world a mask, a false image of himself. Consequently he becomes a master of deceit. But it is extremely important to be able to recognize people whose behavior is detrimental to them, and their family.

A narcissist is not capable of putting others needs before his or her own needs.

Researchers have found that a narcissist reacts much more emotionally than a non-narcissist, sometimes with "narcissistic rage" when his (or her) ego is threatened. Social comparison information is especially salient as the narcissist processes social information in terms of its relevance to the self, that is, he reacts to negative feedback with more anger and aggression and lower self-esteem than a non-narcissist. In fact his mood and self-esteem fluctuations can usually be attributed to social comparison information.

Just something to consider"
posted at 12:08:56 on January 7, 2011 by Anonymous
Insert the sound of a cracking whip,    
"Get off the floor. It's pathetic now. You don't have to demean yourself to fix your marriage. Sometimes our wives want us to just get on with our recovery instead of waiting so intently for them to forgive us. It puts too much pressure on them. That's all. You asked.

Anon. You know a lot about narcissism. You must have a degree... or internet access. You just hang in there."
posted at 15:07:49 on January 7, 2011 by Anonymous
To: Anon with the whip    
"Rugga has been focusing more on recovery over the past year than most addicts do over their lifetime. He has made the progress to prove it, and I believe he probably does not need you trying to motivate him with snide whip remarks or any other way.

Please focus on your own recovery rather than telling other people how to manage theirs. That includes telling them what conversations to have."
posted at 15:13:17 on January 7, 2011 by paul
You're absolutely right, Paul.    
"I'm sorry."
posted at 15:20:07 on January 7, 2011 by Anonymous
Anon with the whip    
"Please, you have lacked respect and created contention. You need to apologize better than that to Rugga and others... . do you know what's really really getting old ?.. being mean and disrespectful of other people's experiences and opinion ..."
posted at 18:36:56 on January 8, 2011 by crushed
Yeah....that's not gonna happen.    
"You know what they say about expectations."
posted at 19:04:49 on January 8, 2011 by Anonymous
I'll be honest    
"...maybe the delivery could have been more delicate but I think the anon asked some pretty thoughtful questions originally.

What got from it is that its inappropriate for the addict to tell the spouse what to do (give me more sex. hug me like my daddy never did etc) so he/she can heal. Cause we know that will never work. So why the seeming double standard? How is it appropriate for the spouse ("victim of the addiction crime") to give recommends on how the perpetrator can help them heal?

Honestly, this "you did this to her" mentality seems unhealthy, not as much for the husband to believe, but the wife..? I mean, how's she supposed to forgive and heal when she's busy thinking "look at what this bastard did to me, to us, to our kids, to my ideals?" and feeling justified by Doug (don't worry Hero I'm still open to Doug and I still like you)? I don't blame the angry spouse. As I've said before I think the ladies should throw us all to the wolves. But, I don't see how if they are so desperate to heal how reinforcing "he did this to you" helps with that? I'm not saying she can't heal that way or that somehow counter intuitively it won't help. But as of now I'm not understanding or missing something."
posted at 20:51:53 on January 8, 2011 by They Speak
Also    
", and I could be totally off, but I've read his comments over and over and I don't see an emotional reactive narcissistic person. Just some dude throwing his opinion out there. My guess is its someone who, regardless of sobriety, is well acquainted with recovery theory."
posted at 21:18:00 on January 8, 2011 by They Speak
I misunderstood    
"One statement. Inspite of reading it like four times. Ha! I haven't slept in two days. Anyway it changed my whole perspective of what anon was trying to say. Never mind for a lot of what I said. I'd go through which parts particularly are non sense and which I still stick by but I'm about delirious right now"
posted at 22:01:58 on January 8, 2011 by They Speak
Anon    
"About forgiveness yes sure that would be heavenly honestly. I should not have used such heavy sarcasm, that was not cool of me. We can disagree, I can respect that.

Anyway I hope the best for your recovery as I do mine. Recovery is hard and we have days where we just want to tell some people to get lost. At least that was last week.

Good luck for next."
posted at 22:38:41 on January 8, 2011 by ruggaexpat
You all are right.    
"Thanks theyspeak. You are one hundred percent on what I was trying to say but you said it much better. And Rugga, I've always been in your corner and have nothing but respect for you. Thanks for being the bigger man and I want to reciprocate. You are right. This thread was absolutely none of my business. I'm an addict too. That means that regardless of "time sober" I'm a lunatic at least 75 percent of the time. I hope you can forgive my atrociously snide comments.
Crushed. Yes, you were right. I have trouble when anyone tells me I NEED to do something."
posted at 23:01:09 on January 8, 2011 by Anonymous
Hey anon    
"All the best and thanks for accepting my about turn.
All the best buddy"
posted at 14:32:06 on January 9, 2011 by ruggaexpat
answering your question, they Speak    
"I will tell you, why we go trough the "he did this to me" is that VICTIMS DESPERATELY (of all kind of abuse) need VALIDATION!!! I know I desperately and for a long time needed other people if not my husband, but others to acknowledge my pain. My therapist and other people on this tread and as well as my husband have helped me healed by acknowledging my pain, including you They speak and I know it's been really key to my recovery. It is like when you are suffering and in pain, it really helps with the healing when other people can tell you, yes I know what happened to you was awful, I know you are hurt, and so on... and I think there is something even more, when it is other addicts that do it... anyways, I feel like this site and all on this (except some anons) have really helped me. Also, we are isolated in what we are going trough, you can not share your pain and get the empathy you need because you can not talk about this to other people or at church. Anyways, I feel so much better than a couple of months ago when I first joined the site. You have provided me with more opportunity to understand the addict and have provided the validation I needed. I am so grateful, really and thank you very much for what you have done for me, especially Derek.
Unfortunately, we are isolated in this problem, this is not something I can talk about to my friends and other people, or at church. We come to this site to meet other people who are going trough the same things, this is for me the only place where I can talk about this, my pain, my struggles and so on. But just to answer your question, we need validation of our feelings and our traumatic experiences."
posted at 15:13:39 on January 9, 2011 by crushed
Rugga, Her Anger?    
"I posted this on the spouses side months ago. I have been thinking about your post on her anger, you are worried that she will not be able to get over it.. She can and below are some of the techniques I used to help me with that process. You might want to share this with her when you feel the timing is right.

Own your anger you earned it:

Most loved ones have experienced neglect in many areas of their relationship and lives because of their addicted partner. He has caused you pain in so many ways. You have every right to feel pain, you have every right to be angry.

I have learned through recovery practices that it is helpful to write a letter to your husband. What you would want to say to him if he was bound and gagged in a chair and would never remember anything you had said or yelled at him. Write it down what you would say to him using any type of language you feel you need to communicate the anger inside of you. You must get rid of the anger if you want to stay with him. Do not share it with him or let him read it. You can share it with your recovery group or therapist, or trusted friend. This was helpful for me.

I also did an exercise where I made sure I could be alone, maybe have your husband take the kids for a drive. Find a room where you can lock the door. Turn some music up very loud and get some pillows or use your bed or cushion. Warm up saying "NO", as you hit the cushion, using a bat or broom or an appropriate beating stick, saying no, in a low voice, then medium then loud striking the cushion with the force that corresponds with your voice. Then at the top of your voice yell all the hurts, profanities, abuses, disgusts........., read letter, stay angry during this time and continue until you are to tired or feel some relief. You may need to do this only once.

Your anger is normal and appropriate. Now own it and start doing the things you have control over to help you heal. Do not let him be the VICTUM here.(husband), You did not cause this!!! Set boundaries for behaviors his and yours with consequences.

Believe me if you do not deal with your anger it will come out! The anger dragon will raise its ugly head and spew fire and rage when you may not have the will to control it.

I know this will be a hard time for you, even after a year of recovery I walked into his office and was overwhelmed with a sick feeling knowing there are women in that office he had lusted over. I offered a silent prayer that those feeling might be removed unless they were guidance from the Holy Ghost. I did not want to push away my intuitions or instincts. Heavenly Father is always there for me as he will be for you.

I also read a beautiful quote, Journey of the Heart by Melody Beattie,
" Your emotions are like the surf. Sometimes they pound gently sometimes fiercely. Sometimes the color of blue, sometimes gray. They may be the result of a storm, sometimes a squall far away. Let them pound. Let them pass through. Let them subside. Let them turn into the next weave. Each emotion is connected to a belief embedded in your soul. I am abandoned. I am deserted. I am separated from God and love. But you are not your emotions. Your emotions don't control your life, no matter how fierce, no matter how strong. No matter how relentless. No matter, at times, how overwhelming.

LET THE EMOTIONS PASS THROUGH, FEELL ALL
YOU NEED TO FEEL. SAY ALL YOU NEED TO SAY
TO LET THE STORM SUBSIDE. THEN PAUSE. WAIT. REST. LET YOUR BODY REGROUP AND HEAL. YOU WILL HAVE GROWN. YOU WILL HAVE CHANGED. AND YOU'LL BE ON YOUR WAY TO LEARNING SOMETHING NEW."

BELIEVE ACTIONS, not words! Repentance requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Humility and love towards those you have harmed. Patience and a softening of countenance.

Forgiveness is a gift: For me forgiveness was out of my reach in this offence. I needed the Savior to gift it to me. Just as we need him to gift us charity and every-other Godly attribute. Your husband is so blessed that you are a strong courageous Daughter of God. That you are staying with him to give him the opportunity to hold up to his covenants and oath's. You can heal, He can heal but only with much work and effort. The Miracle of Forgiveness is there for all who SEEK it.
And Seek is an action word just like the Gospel is action.......

You can Heal! Your Marraige can heal! Your family can heal! "
posted at 13:39:36 on January 11, 2011 by hero
Rugga, For You, on Her Anger    
"These are notes from Dr. Evils CD, " Helping Her Heal" , I think it should be retitled, How to increase your chances of staying married after SD. ;-)

ANGER

Is separate from grief, it will happen and should happen.
Anger is your friend; if she’s mad at you, its evidence she still loves you are is still in the game.
Think: “this woman loves Me., she is with me. She’s angry because I put her in pain. Most angry women stay.

Love and hate are closely connected. You cannot hate something you do not love.

If she says, " I hate you!" think; She loves me because she is angry.

If she is indifferent!!! This is scary – it’s the red zone, she is running on fumes, indifference precedes separation and divorce. If this is her way of being toward you, for more than a day, then you’re in trouble.

Be honest. Be a man. Be Clean

Your wife needs a real man. She needs a hero.
REMEMBER & MEMORIZE ( tell yourself)
• I caused this pain for her to be angry.
• She’s angry because she loves me.
• Anger is a part of healing.
• Anger is only a feeling. (Feelings are fleeting, it’s not a fact. She’ll get over it. Help her, love her.)
• I accept her when she’s angry. (Don’t shame, don’t humiliate, don’t reject, and don’t act childish. If you do, you’re probably going around that mountain again because you did not get it.)

How to Make Her More Mad (adding gasoline to the fire)
1. Start talking about you. (Selfishly defending)
2. Tell her you’re doing better. (I’m OK – what’s your problem?)
3. Ask, what’s your problem? (It’s over, it’s the past)

How to Help Her Heal – 3 Rules for Early Recovery

1. Stay Clean 2. Be Quiet 3. Don’t defend yourself

I pray for you and your wife. I have hope for both of you recovering. I know you can, I know God is with you and will help you both. "
posted at 18:28:28 on January 11, 2011 by hero
Thank you Hero    
"There is so much goodness in this thread.
Thanks for rising to help me. Wow it is great to get your support.

Despite the frequent mistakes I make in navigating my new relationship, I am hopeful, I am seeing the progress and it is there.

There are days she is angry, and that is OK now really it is, I am glad she is angry. It at least shows she cares about me. If that is the case then she can carry on being angry until she has no more anger left inside her. Cannot believe I just wrote that but that is the truth. It is hard to face it but I know it is best. I want her to feel happy I want her to heal.
Here is a follow up from my side.
I bought Evil's Helping her heal DVD, a-flipping-mazing. Seriously helps me understand her process of dealing with this. He spoke to me and I learned a lot.
I have read cover to cover Intimacy Anorexia - the book.
I got a bit take back when she ripped my Intimacy anorexia workbook in half - but that is OK too nothing tape cannot fix.
I need to jump on those exercises and do the dailies.

I am clean, 100% and it will be that way for the rest of time.
I am quiet much of the time but need to work on that one especially when my patience has worn out.
I defend myself less but still is a problem. I am not referring to defending my past, I am talking about defending my present communication skills. I am wasting my time though because there is nothing to defend really - So goes the life.

I am getting there HERO, it is a daily thing and a lot of work. Slow and steady wins the race.
I was listening to the CES fireside from Sunday Elder Christoferson gave a talk. I am sure you have seen it.

That is the talk that has more for the addict than I have ever heard in the church.
Basically says one day at a time, that is how I decided to live through this and it is up there among my best decisions."
posted at 20:12:44 on January 11, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Before I forget    
"The hardest thing is when she says it is over, because that hurts so bad, it rips my insides out and disables me emotionally that I cannot say anything positive, I just sit and say the dumbest things like "fine go find mr perfect" or something along those lines. Retarded I know but I am just back into child reaction mode. Hate it. Other than that I can take anything else she says."
posted at 20:16:19 on January 11, 2011 by ruggaexpat
You will make it!    
"You are right there is no microwaving this process. I hated that all I ever heard was patience...that is all the answer to my prayers brought. Patience!! I wanted Peace!
Then I did a scripture study on patience. Wow! I finally got it.

Tonight at our meeting the thought was shared that sarcasm actually mean to rip the flesh. So much of my anger came out as sarcasm through the recovery porcess. I would Rip the flesh, and pour salt in it. So I have to forgive myself also.

My husband texted me tonight and said tell them, I LOVE YOU! We've come along way baby!

Love and prayers for you and your wife and presious girls."
posted at 00:10:30 on January 12, 2011 by hero
Crushed    
"That's the only thing I could conclude and that makes sense. I love you Crushed and inspite of the spitfire I see a sweet heart that needs hugs...even if they are verbal :) You deserve all the validation you need...just don't be to stark raving mad crazy eh ;) Thanks for the explanation p.s.. It was a good one. Its good to hear. Clarifies it in my mind.

Hester (rugga): I haven't read all the comments so maybe this got addressed already. But I saw your "fine, go find mister perfect" thing and just had some thoughts.

Think of when you were dating; how did you (ideally) pursue your wife or any other girl and expect to win her over? My guess is with confidence. The thing is the message of your statement, as I see it, is not "retarded". Its the lack of confidence and ensuing way the statement is pitched that's retarded. Not the message. I think she should know that if she can't find her desire for you that she should, and is at perfect liberty to, try her hand at finding it for someone else and be aware you are quietly confident that your her guy. Sometimes you don't have to say anything to exude this. If I said anything I'd say the same thing just in different words, "that is you right to choose. all I can promise you is I'm doing everything I currently know how to make you happy and I have faith that we will succeed...and though bleak now I think the prospect of that is pretty exciting." Ya know or something like that. Id probably just stop at "that is your right to choose" and then show in my demeanor that I believed what I said. And then have faith!

You have to disconnect from your fear, if you have it, of losing her in order to keep her in my opinion. Humans (chicks) are attracted to faith...and often repelled by fear or efforts motivated by fear. Even recovery efforts if overly motivated by the fear of losing someone will subtly repel them in my opinion. Work to recover motivated by the faith of keeping her or at least the faith that either way you'll be happy. Ya dig? Let go to keep. Like the anon said just get on with your recovery. Quite waiting around for her forgiveness like a dog with a leash in its mouth. To much pressure. And not very knight in shining armorly (sexy).

By the way sorry I practic none of what I preach ;) So calling me out will not be necessary. However, feel free.

If what Hero says is true about how their realities have been destroyed or something like that then I think part of our responsibility is to reassure them of some realities. A big one, who she fell in love with. She did fall in love with you right? What you've done is not who you are. Reassure her by being confident in who you are - who she fell in love with. And I'm not talking about loud bravado. I'm talking about the subtle twinkle in your eye, almost imperceptible - as if it were a whisper (if you will), that says "the Lord has got my back. Wherefore can ye doubt?"

Sure, shes thought the Lord had your back before and look at what happened right? He probably did have your back then and eventually if you have faith she'll see He still does and that He's changed you or will.

Of course she may have to rearrange her girlish notions of "happily ever after" but who cares those are retarded anyway! Obviously, as we've learned we validate and mourn for their destroyed innocence; but in the end I personally find choice - a fall - experience - an atonement much more attractive then "happily ever after" anyway.

Anyway, my main point is you're a good guy dude! Eff. And the ugly/sad truth is she's not going to do better unless she plain just does not like you. I find that hard to believe...actually on second thought.. ;)

p.s. Get her on here and have her read some of my posts...see what a real jerk looks like :)"
posted at 16:48:14 on January 12, 2011 by They Speak
Thanks Speak    
"I am not ignoring your thoughts, it will just take a long one to respond.
I am seriously busy.
Lot of food for thought there for me."
posted at 19:15:26 on January 13, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Dude    
"No hurry. I was honestly going to apologize for busting out on the soap box so heavily. Kind of embarrassed. If I made any offense, a thousand apologies. What do I know about sweeping our wives off their feet anyway? Gees. I think I was tired. I tend to ramble indiscriminately :)

I'd still love to hear your thoughts though."
posted at 23:38:17 on January 13, 2011 by They Speak
Hero    
"I have also been reading the 5 love languages by Gary Chapman (fantastic read) and it is crazy how his 5 love languages address the intimacy anorexia I experience. I am seriously frustrated because all this time I get where I have gone wrong in loving my wife. Her love languages are primarily quality time/conversation and acts of service. Oh my gosh is there more pain I could have inflicted in this poor wife of mine for so many years?

Hey I also realized that I withheld sex. Now how the hell does a PA withhold sex well I realized that my wife never got to experience the real deal. I have been in denial until today about that because it just seemed so impossible but there it is, cannot deny it, I get what Weiss was saying about withholding sex.

I understand why she would not want to even look at me because why I starved myself of intimacy by choice, I tortured her by in the same process. So when I read about Katie and Crushed and my wife in there too revolted by the thought of intimacy hey that to me sounds fair until they ever decide to change minds.

I took helping her heal and the IA book to ARP meeting last week and it was crazy, all the wives wanted to know more, the husbands (addicts) more like "Oh ok mmmm interesting" but could tell they were like "wierdo". Anyway my wife seemed a bit embarrassed with me bringing the materials along so she spent some time explaining a few things and answering Q's. I can tell you the general feeling was like "oh really well mine does that too" or "no way mine says the same thing" or "AAAAHHHH thats what it is". Anyway it seems a lot of us couples in this addiction recovery mess have experienced a lot more of the IA than we realize.

Thanks for sharing all this again.
God Bless You."
posted at 19:02:12 on January 20, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Speak    
"Buddy thanks for sharing your stuff.
Given it a lot of thought and yes you and Anon are right the longer I sit around waiting to be loved the longer this sad story will continue.

My wife knows I am remorseful, she knows I am fixing things within my power and she knows I am growing up.

I have turned the page on my "lets take this personal escapade" and that helps my wife a lot more.

I still think we cannot just sit back and focus on our own recovery and must take an active part in helping the wife heal - That is my number one priority.

OK NOW IS WHERE I SAY THANKS. It is all about confidence and letting go of the fear. You are right and I will apply that reminder. Thanks buddy.
For the record (pun intended here) I swear you have just passed us all for the longest amount of writing on this site. Dude how do you write so much? Thanks for caring bro."
posted at 19:17:07 on January 20, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Oh Dear    
"I am so glad when I hear other women feel/have felt like I have. I mean I wouldn't wish this mess on anyone but it's nice to know I am not the only one to react this way. I have pointed out to Hubster, "Remember all those years I couldn't even look at you during s~x? Remember how I turned my head to the side the whole time?... Now we both know why!"

I have read some of this thread to Hubster. He likes Hero's ideas about the intimacy rules. Just imagining them makes me uncomfortable! I can't do it! I guess I am an anorexic. (I have always said that I wish I could get a little case of anorexia)! I smiled at the imagery of you talking about IA at ARP and how everyone reacted. Nice. :)

And Hubster was practically dancing when I read Hero's statements about, "I hate you= I love you." Sheesh, I'm in all kinds of trouble now. I've got learn to keep quiet. :)"
posted at 20:48:00 on January 20, 2011 by katie
Ha!    
"Untill recently I worked less then half the year. That and a smart phone. That's how I write so much...honestly, I hate it :) uuhg

Oh, also I blame you. After my first few post's I never thought/intended I'd keep it up. But you encouraged me to keep writing on more then one occasion early on, so I did. I've actually had a user name on this site for like 4 years that I only used 2 or 3 times over that course. But once I got going I just couldn't stop! Ha, who knew. You've created a monster."
posted at 21:50:59 on January 20, 2011 by They Speak
5 Languages?    
"I have heard alot about that book. It is recommended for recovery for IA and many who are looking for recovery as a couple. My husband is not much of a reader and I get frustrated when I have these great books laying around or even the audios and he steps around them like they are snakes. So I have not read it yet. But, thanks for the reminder, I am going to order it tomorrow. I think it is similar to DR.DW book, Pleasures. Helps you define what in life brings you the most pleasure.

I am so glad you have the courage and strength to share your recovery experiences with others. I also bring my books, CDs and give and share with all. I find the guys that are truly seeking recovery love getting new material to help them. They hunger and thirst..... and look at me with extreme caution and maybe some trepidation. I agree that so many couples who are dealing with the fallout of SA within their marriage are struggling now with IA or the like.

The Good NEWS is, we all can heal, we all can have that amazing union God promised us.

I hope your wife knows how lucky she is to have a husband who is not afraid of recovery. Who is humble and filled with Godly Sorrow. I am so glad that I have been able to help in some small way. I celebrate you. I anticipate the joy in your union as you both experience the Real Deal! God is Good!

Katie, It was uncomfortable for me at first also. Just do it! Practice it! I promise, you will heal. You are still carrying so much baggage from that Jerk who squandered your innocence in your first marriage. I know that if you grasp onto really doing the Work in the 12 steps for yourself you will heal. Then you will be able to make hard decisions about what your future really holds for you. So many of the spouses in the recovery meeting I attend have cast off their husbands for SA or Porn and M. or Adultery. Then they remarry and OPPS! They wish they would have worked on the first marriage. If there is not abuse, physical or mental, the marriage and the relationship can go through a magical transformation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Do the work for you, do the work for your children. When you are healed you will be able to see clearly what life should hold for you. You will know for sure what you should do.

Love to you all!"
posted at 04:26:27 on January 21, 2011 by hero
Katie and HERO    
"Please share comments on how these phrases apply to you.
Sorry to ask so much but hey One of you guided me to gold and the other is a carbon copy of my wife on paper.

"Each of us must decide daily to love or not to love our spouses. If wee choose to love, then expressing it in the way in which our spouse requests will make our love most effective emotionally."

"People tend to criticize their spouse most loudly in the area where they themselves have the deepest emotional need. Their criticism is an ineffective way of pleading for love."

My fav:

Love says"I love you too much to let you treat me this way. It is not good for you or me"

I believe the Lord is teaching me what my wife needs, what she has been missing.
I now understand her cries a bit better."
posted at 12:26:39 on January 21, 2011 by ruggaexpat
My 2 cents..    
""Each of us must decide daily to love or not to love our spouses."
Well, as far as applying to me---- I believe that I do sort-of choose not to love my husband. I mean, before I knew about his addiction, I wasn't in love but I tried to be. I wanted to be. But after the addiction has come out, I sort-of have decided not to try to be in love. I can't take it.

" If wee choose to love, then expressing it in the way in which our spouse requests will make our love most effective emotionally."
This makes sense. I often feel like Hubster shows me love in the ways he would want love. For instance, he likes to buy me gifts, but I never want him to because I am always worried he will blow the budget on something that is not practical. If it isn't practical or something I really need or want, than the gift doesn't make me happy. For instance, Flowers! Hubster loves to buy them and I hate to see money thrown away on them. So, I have learned to express myself better. Hubster now understands that I'd rather have his time and help than roses. (We have had to compromise and now he buys me one rose at a time, instead of 12. I still think it's a waste, but at least it's only $1.50). What I really want is my mini-van vacuumed and the oil changed. But this goes both ways. If I decide to show him love, than I could do it by buying him a gift. However, at this point, Hubster is flying high if I make him a sandwich or smile at him, or sheesh, if I laugh at his jokes he is in Heaven.

"People tend to criticize their spouse most loudly in the area where they themselves have the deepest emotional need. Their criticism is an ineffective way of pleading for love."
I am not sure about this.... maybe? I think the area where I criticize Hubster the most are all directly related to his addiction and I have certainly have had a lot of emotional stress in this area. It is what makes me feel the least love, and therefore in the most need of it? I don't know, I am not a very deep person? :)

Love says"I love you too much to let you treat me this way. It is not good for you or me"
Well, I think part of caring for one's own self is to put up boundaries for what you can handle. For me, I was the ultimatum wife. After the big disclosure bomb, my bishop warned me he would most likely relapse. I told him and Hubster that he can never relapse. I will not live with dealing with this pain over and over again. I will not live with p~rn in my house or the evil spirits that come with it. But now, from reading this site, I realize , I wasn't giving an ultimatum, I was simply setting a boundary that made me feel safe! :)

Probably doesn't help much? Happy Sabbath, Rugga!"
posted at 19:11:13 on January 23, 2011 by katie
Questions??    
"Rugga, I have not commented back on this thread because I have been struggling with some issues of my own. Namely, Do I feel safe with him, Do I feel safe in giving my heart to him? And many more questions that are brought up in the IA book? So I have been spending some time on me and wondering if I have postponed my healing with my own Co-Dep. tendencies of helping everyone else. I believe I have. I am still serving as a missionary 2 nights a week for PASGS, and I love my time there. I have seen much healing and hope restored and light in the sisters eyes.

I did finally get and read The 5 Love Languages. I found it very helpful and you are right it address many of the IA issues. My hubby read some of the book and did take the quiz. I have been talking to him in his love language always. He has been talking my language if it is the same as his, but my other most important language quality time, he speaks a foreign tongue. Hopefully this exercise will help us clean up our emotional relationship even more. I will report later on that one.

To answer your questions:

"Each of us must decide daily to love or not to love our spouses. If wee choose to love, then expressing it in the way in which our spouse requests will make our love most effective emotionally." My husbands primary language is physical touch, no big surprise....I have understood this in an instinctive way for most of our marriage. Now that I have a further analysis of this, I will make MORE of an effort to communicate my love to him in that manner. Hugs and kisses when he comes home, back scratches unsolicited, and sitting close while we are watching TV or relaxing. I am a touchy feely kind of person anyway so this is very easy for me. This is also one of my primary languages. We do have that going for us. And as we have worked through the IA and SA issues, intimacy has become so much more satisfying for both of us. One of the biggest blessings of this process. All of this reaffirms to me that we have an amazing Heavenly Father and our Savior, Jesus Christ who really do want us to have an awesome earthly experience. We just have to play by His rules! It is all there for us in the scriptures, we have just been blinded.

I will write more later. Hope all is well with you and the misses. Prayers to you and all. "
posted at 19:25:53 on April 1, 2011 by hero
Hero    
"My wife's love languages are quality time and acts of service. I have upped activity in both areas. My old porn addiction cannot compete with my new found love for washing the dishes, I have never found a more relaxing house chore. Folding washing is another story, but as the little Tshoo Tshoo going up the hill says "I think I can I think I can..." No really I enjoy helping around the house nowadays.

Quality time I need more work on but I am much better. I need to reread that section again to make sure I am more consistent and effective. Still working hard on both languages but yes life is different now.

IA is still a work in recovery, I blame, go into silent mode way too often but I know when I do it and am aware fo its effects and so it lasts a shorter time than in the past. I am working on praising more and a whole bunch of other things but holy cow so thankful you introduced me to this. I have introduced it to a couple people at ARP meetings, one friend has ordered the literature so we can discuss it openly together. More the merryer.

Yes I took a little break from the site to make sure I stay balanced in my habits toward recovery. I believe my recovery to reach a new level starting April because our missionary couple has got permission to use the new spouses manual (released this March) in our weekl meetings. This will allow us to hear the wives share thoughts from their world, I cannot wait. I will study that manual as hard as I did the addicts manual. I am greatful the Lord has allowed us to do this. We share a special bond in our group, we a great friends and this new study material will be incredible for all our recovery - of that I am sure. I have not yet read the spouses manual so now is the time.

Good to hear from you again. At first I thought oh no if you are still harbouring those feelings how long until my wife can look past the past. Again I am reminded it is not about me but her and likewise for you and the hubby.

Take care Hero - Your'e amazing"
posted at 21:14:07 on April 5, 2011 by ruggaexpat
Had to chuckle a bit...    
"Rugga, I have to say I had a smile when I read your first paragraph. For years I have told my wife that folding laundry was the worst of all household chores, doing dishes was a close second. I'm not saying I never did them, but I probably complained about it more than I needed to.

One of the things my wife often laughs at now is how I tell her I LOVE to do the dishes at night. She of course would say I was lying and I hated doing them, I would respond that I've had a change of heart regarding dishes and I could think of no better way to spend an evening, except for possibly just hanging out with her and our boys. I read your reply to her last night and the similarities where pretty obvious right away. Like you, I haven't improved as much on the laundry front, but... I will work on it.

Anyway. Things are going well here. I have tried to answer your questions about how things are in our home, but I always end up changing the response to private or moving it into my personal journal. Suffice it to say that we are moving forward. Our eternal family is becoming just that. It feels great to emerge out of the swamp and find light, warmth, cleanliness, and forgiveness. I still have a hard time feeling guilty, forgiving myself for hurting her, but it is coming.

There is no doubt, I love my family. I love my wife. I love my Heavenly Father. Thank you Rugga for your example and strength. I continue to pray for your and your wife and family. That goes for you too Hero, except, replace wife with husband. :)"
posted at 11:29:07 on April 6, 2011 by paul
Paul    
"It is so bad now that my wife has even turned around a few times and said "You see you only do the things you love to do around the house and not the things I want you to do."

Let me tell you I wish I had a time machine to show her how bad I was before but yes I admit house chore perfection is just above the horizon. I just have to make things easier on myself by doing the folding in smaller batches and not procrastinate the day of folding. It helps to fold one bunch one night as opposed to 5 in one night.

Glad you are well and life is dandy.

I wrote to Lincoln last night, he could do with some help, I felt for him yesterday.
When you have time send him a message, same old hectic situation you faced, coming clean but wife does not know.
You know how it is. You also know the blessings."
posted at 13:07:40 on April 6, 2011 by ruggaexpat


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"You lived with your Heavenly Father in a premortal life. You were there with Him. Your spirit knows what it is like to live in celestial realms. You can never be truly happy in an uncelestial environment. You know too much. That is one of the reasons that for you, wickedness never can be happiness. What a great thing it is to decide once and for all early in life what you will do and what you will not do with regards to honesty, modesty, chastity, the Word of Wisdom, and temple marriage. "

— Larry W. Gibbons

General Conference October 2006